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Where did it all go wrong for The Liberal Democrats ?

deltic

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I am a Lib Dem member and been a candidate for them in council elections. Past support mainly came because we were not in power and a lot of the support was protest voters. Unlike Labour and the Tory party who have a large tribal support who will vote for them no matter what that did not apply with the Lib Dems. I feel we made the right decision to form a coalition with the Tories at the time but like the DUP in more recent times we were completely shafted by them. The wrong decision was made over tuition fees but unlike Labour and Tories who both made commitments on tuition fees that were broken we were unable to shake off the fall out from it. Today the Greens have become more the party of protest although they too have failed to break though to the extent that I thought they would have the Lib Dem collapse.

The Lib Dems have slowly started recovering their position in councils with over 700 seat gains in 2019 but I doubt we will see them getting back to 50 MPs in my life time.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Might the problem date back a full 100 years to the early 1920's when David Lloyd George's tenure as Prime Minister came to an inglorious end after he had become embroiled in the cash for honours scandal?

After all, there's not been a Liberal Prime Minister since then! :rolleyes:
 

Typhoon

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Might the problem date back a full 100 years to the early 1920's when David Lloyd George's tenure as Prime Minister came to an inglorious end after he had become embroiled in the cash for honours scandal?

After all, there's not been a Liberal Prime Minister since then! :rolleyes:
He was leading a coalition government in which the Conservatives were very much the senior partner, indeed there were a few Liberals on the opposition benches.

So there might be a lesson to learn - don't go into coalition with the Tories (the Lloyd George Liberals were effectively wiped out by 1923). Unfortunately 'don't dole out honours to the undeserving' doesn't get the opprobrium it deserves nowadays.

Whatever happened to those defectors from Change UK? Although none were elected their loyalty to the LibDems doesn't seem to have stretched very far. Have any of them been campaigning or was it 'any port in a storm'? Some of them were, at least, 'faces' who might have been able to put an argument across.
 

Butts

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I think the problem with the Lib Dems is they don't know what 'Liberalism' is and don't know how to apply it practically to present day politics.

Put simply, the LibDems should be about equality without Labour's class politics. That should mean a high focus on education, public spending, economic rebalancing and devolution/constitutional change. However, they've boxed themselves, like Labour, in an awkward, unattractive corner by being staunchy internationalist and anti-nation state (they can kiss goodbye to any Northern England seats), being dogmatically anti-Brexit and not accepting to vote or at least advocating some kind of new UK-EU relationship and embracing 'woke' politics before more moderate progressivism - at least, that's what I have seen from members.

The LibDems should start by saying to the Tories and Labour that at least a third of you are probably Liberals. One Nation Tories are Liberals - mildly progressive, fisicaly responsible, patriotic but also internationalist. Whilst Labour moderates are much like the latter but perhaps more likely to advocate higher public spending. These two groups are not Corbynite or Johnsonian Red Wall purists, plus they're probably both remainers anyway.

The LibDems would then need to realise that most major socio-economic policies from 1945-2016 were Liberal in nature. The Beveridge Report for instance, Thatcherism - a Liberal rather than a Tory ideology (Thatcher even admitted she was more of a Gladstonian Liberal than a Tory), Blairism which arguably completed the neo-liberal Thatcherite project and lastly Cameron who was just a more 'small c' Conservative Blair. The Liberals have a large, ready-made ideological spectrum that if it accepts and capitalises on could drain away disenfranchised Labour/Tory moderates.

I believe they need a intellectual, passionate leader that can really aggressively sell the nation what it means to be a Liberal. Until then, they're just going to have to keep dreaming of a time when PR becomes the General Election voting system.

Newsflash PR is already here in The Scottish Parliamentary Elections and the LD's have got 5 out of 135 MSP's.
 

scotrail158713

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Newsflash PR is already here in The Scottish Parliamentary Elections and the LD's have got 5 out of 135 MSP's.
Maybe their issue is up here then? The fact that they both gained 4% of the vote and lost a seat in the 2019 GE (stats from here) suggests their problem isn't necessarily rooted in the party itself.
 

Butts

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Just checked The Senedd in Wales they've only got one seat there - how low can they get ?

Imagine a lot of the UKIP seats will be hoovered up by the Tories.

Could Wales become a Liberal Free Zone in the Senedd after today ?
 

deltic

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The Lib Dems polled 3 times as many votes as the SNP at the 2019 General Election but got less than a quarter of the SNP's seats. The Greens more than 3 times the DUP but gained 1/8 of their seats. Lib Dems and Green suffer from having votes spread throughout the country rather than being concentrated in tight geographic areas.
 

Mcr Warrior

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The Lib Dems polled 3 times as many votes as the SNP at the 2019 General Election but got less than a quarter of the SNP's seats.
Is that maybe partly because the SNP tend not to field all that many prospective parliamentary candidates South of the Border? :rolleyes:
 

Butts

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The Lib Dems polled 3 times as many votes as the SNP at the 2019 General Election but got less than a quarter of the SNP's seats. The Greens more than 3 times the DUP but gained 1/8 of their seats. Lib Dems and Green suffer from having votes spread throughout the country rather than being concentrated in tight geographic areas.

How do you explain their 5 seats in Scotland with PR in place then , votes spread throughout the Country should produce List Seats.
 

XAM2175

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How do you explain their 5 seats in Scotland with PR in place then , votes spread throughout the Country should produce List Seats.
Because the votes cast by people in the 2019 general election weren't used to produce to outcome of the 2016 Scottish Parliament election?
 

Bevan Price

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It's a very misused word, as in the German Democratic Republic, and Democratic People's Republic of Korea...
And until we get a fully elected House of Lords. UK will remain a shamocracy rather than a true democracy.
 

LOL The Irony

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Yup, the "gay sex is sinful" view is homophobic.
But he never said that. He stupidly said something wide open to interpretation. Whilst you have had first hand experience with the bad side of a religion, I'm still going to have to respectfully disagree with you.
which I really, really seriously hope you don't approve of.
I (like most people) don't approve of any conversion therapy for any persuasion that exists - sexual or ideological.
 

Journeyman

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But he never said that. He stupidly said something wide open to interpretation. Whilst you have had first hand experience with the bad side of a religion, I'm still going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

I (like most people) don't approve of any conversion therapy for any persuasion that exists - sexual or ideological.
I'll lay my cards on the table and say that I think evangelical Christianity is extremely dangerous, and is fundamentally homophobic. I've seen plenty of evidence to confirm that view.

In saying something open to interpretation as homophobic, I suspect his true motives came out. We often give away far more than we mean to at times like those.
 

Butts

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Because the votes cast by people in the 2019 general election weren't used to produce to outcome of the 2016 Scottish Parliament election?

Yes but his point was they would do better if their spread out vote could be utilised in a PR system. One exists in Scotland and they still ended up with 5 seats rather contradicting that theory.
 

GusB

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I certainly miss Charles Kennedy. While he had his own personal demons to deal with, he always struck me as being a decent and honest character. None of the LibDem leaders since then have inspired me.
 

Butts

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I certainly miss Charles Kennedy. While he had his own personal demons to deal with, he always struck me as being a decent and honest character. None of the LibDem leaders since then have inspired me.

I remember when he was caught having a sly ciggie in the vestibule of a Cornish train Service and claimed unashamedly he was unaware that was not permitted :E

340 Votes in Hartlepool - oh dear :oops:
 
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deltic

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I remember when he was caught having a sly ciggie in the vestibule of a Cornish train Service and claimed unashamedly he was unaware that was not permitted :E

340 Votes in Hartlepool - oh dear :oops:
But winning council seats in Sunderland from Labour who look like they have had another horrendous election
 

DarloRich

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Are you going to gain overall control ?

No - although the Tories picked up a good number of seats and if all seats were up for election Labour may have lost control. Again if you look at the numbers you are seeing the UKIP vote going Tory again. The exception to that is Hendon. A MASSIVE swing to the Libs Dems. 36%!
 

hst43102

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I'll lay my cards on the table and say that I think evangelical Christianity is extremely dangerous, and is fundamentally homophobic. I've seen plenty of evidence to confirm that view.

In saying something open to interpretation as homophobic, I suspect his true motives came out. We often give away far more than we mean to at times like those.
As a Christian myself, I find your view on this topic rather closed-minded in my opinion. Even if Farron was homophobic (which the evidence doesn't point towards), could he not have still been a good leader?
 

Journeyman

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As a Christian myself, I find your view on this topic rather closed-minded in my opinion. Even if Farron was homophobic (which the evidence doesn't point towards), could he not have still been a good leader?
No, not if you're leading a party that claims to stand for liberal values.

I'm sure the Scottish Family Party would welcome him.
 

WelshBluebird

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Even if Farron was homophobic (which the evidence doesn't point towards), could he not have still been a good leader?
Not if you are gay or have gay friends or family or are an ally to those who are.
 

peters

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Such a shame they hounded out Tim Farron as leader because of his Christian values. He's an awesome local MP and could have been the leader to save the libdems from oblivion.

Unfortunately, the media decided Theresa May should win the 2017 election despite her not turning up to leader debates that the media wanted. The media decided the Lib Dems led by Farron was unelectable because he can't respect the views of the church he attends at the same time as leading a party which is in favour of equality for gays, while Corbyn was unelectable because he had spoken to Hamas. The Andrew Neil interviews on BBC spent over half the airtime focusing on those non-issues and not asking the leaders about the issues that matter. Then Theresa May turned up for a rare media appearance and Andrew Neil treated her like a friend with no awkward questions, despite one of the biggest issues being how to deliver Brexit and that being something she couldn't answer properly and had kept saying things like "Brexit means Brexit" and "We'll deliver a Red, White and Blue Brexit."

Both Andrew Neil and the producer of those interviews should have been sacked for incompetence.

I feel we made the right decision to form a coalition with the Tories at the time but like the DUP in more recent times we were completely shafted by them. The wrong decision was made over tuition fees but unlike Labour and Tories who both made commitments on tuition fees that were broken we were unable to shake off the fall out from it. Today the Greens have become more the party of protest although they too have failed to break though to the extent that I thought they would have the Lib Dem collapse.

It's a shame that people have forgotten prior to the 2010 General Election David Cameron said directly to Nick Clegg he would love to raise the personal allowance for income tax to £12,000 but there was 'no way' it could be done. Yet following the election result returning a hung parliament Cameron changed his mind and found a way to do it if the Lib Dems agreed to a coalition.

In Cheshire East while I don't think the Greens won any seats at the last local council election but they did get respectable runner up voting totals in some of the villages with their policy of we support investment in rail but we don't support HS2. The Lib Dems were nowhere to be seen in many areas, in Mobberley they'd usually put a candidate forward and who usually got a respectable number of votes without actually winning but at the last election they didn't put forward a candidate and neither did Labour, the Lib Dems or UKIP, the result was a bemused young Tory who had just moved to the village from Preston got told she would be the councillor as no-one else was standing.

Swinson in particular was a liability for the party and an utter disaster.

Agreed. I was prepared to give her a chance noting that she only became a MP for the 1st time in 2010 so while her voting record didn't look good I thought that was perhaps due to the Lib Dems agreeing to compromises but she failed to deliver.

I think it's a shame Ed Davey is the current leader when he was also part of the coalition cabinet and they could have chosen someone like Layla Moran who was nothing to do that coalition government.

Yup, the "gay sex is sinful" view is homophobic.

Some Christians consider it sinful to have sex other than for the purpose of trying to conceive, so by that view a large majority of the population are sinful, not just homosexuals who have sex for pleasure.
 

birchesgreen

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There are Christians and there are Christians, there is a huge range of views between different churches and congregations. I've been to some evangelical (elim) services and they were rather different to your bog standard C of E service. Quite disturbing in some ways too, especially the speaking in tongues...
 

Butts

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Oh dear where is Deltic ???

You've been wiped out in Wales and your leader there has done a disappearing act ?

Where is Ms Dodds ? - looking for Lembit Opik to return and save the party?
 

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