Where did it all go wrong for The Liberal Democrats ?

[Mat17]

Charles Kennedy was definitely a Social Democrat, having moved from a Labour background, but Nick Clegg was an old style Liberal. Whilst the leadership in 2010 was mostly Liberal, the membership & voters were largely Social Democratic (even if the voters themselves didn't know that!) and the party leaned leftwards. That's why so many members & voters felt betrayed by the coalition, they'd have rather chewed off a limb than support "modern day" Tories.
Now, the Libdems are fishing in the same pool as Labour & the Greens (SNP in Scotland/Plaid in Wales), namely the 60% of voters who aren't Tory.

Very succinct. Isn't it interesting how, as a former Liberal voter I was quite happy with the leadership of Nick Clegg and didn't have any issue with joining the coalition government. But then I guess I'm an old style liberal at heart - somewhere in the middle ground between the blues and the yellows, I'm categorically not a socialist. Since the LibDems have move left, I now vote Tory.

 

[Acfb]

Very succinct. Isn't it interesting how, as a former Liberal voter I was quite happy with the leadership of Nick Clegg and didn't have any issue with joining the coalition government. But then I guess I'm an old style liberal at heart - somewhere in the middle ground between the blues and the yellows, I'm categorically not a socialist. Since the LibDems have move left, I now vote Tory.

I wouldn't call the Lib Dems left TBH at least not in England - I would say they are an avowedly centrist socially liberal party and pretty much all their seats in England (with the possible exception of Farron's seat) and their main target seats contain lots of well educated voters who voted remain with very high property prices.

Ironically I think Brexit (and later Johnson becoming PM) actually saved the Lib Dems bacon (and gave them a renewed more coherent identity) and they've now ended up with more or less the electoral coalition that Clegg and the orange bookers desired a decade now when they entered coalition despite the fact that the most prominent orange bookers with the exception of Davey aren't in front line politics anymore.

 

[davehsug]

I wouldn't call the Lib Dems left TBH at least not in England - I would say they are an avowedly centrist socially liberal party and pretty much all their seats in England (with the possible exception of Farron's seat) and their main target seats contain lots of well educated voters who voted remain with very high property prices.

Ironically I think Brexit (and later Johnson becoming PM) actually saved the Lib Dems bacon (and gave them a renewed more coherent identity) and they've now ended up with more or less the electoral coalition that Clegg and the orange bookers desired a decade now when they entered coalition despite the fact that the most prominent orange bookers with the exception of Davey aren't in front line politics anymore.

I think you're right that the current Libdems are not left, although compared to the current Tory party, which has basically morphed into Farage's UKIP, most of the soft right & centre are now decidedly left. Brexit has ironically handed the Libdems an opportunity. Imo, they should definitely position themselves unequivocally as a rejoin party. No mealy-mouthed Labour posturing, it is a clear & obvious difference, and since there is no realistic chance of them forming a government, needn't put off any but the most committed Brexiters. Together with a continued strongly green agenda, they can present themselves as a radical, reforming and internationalist party.

 

[Acfb]

I think you're right that the current Libdems are not left, although compared to the current Tory party, which has basically morphed into Farage's UKIP, most of the soft right & centre are now decidedly left. Brexit has ironically handed the Libdems an opportunity. Imo, they should definitely position themselves unequivocally as a rejoin party. No mealy-mouthed Labour posturing, it is a clear & obvious difference, and since there is no realistic chance of them forming a government, needn't put off any but the most committed Brexiters. Together with a continued strongly green agenda, they can present themselves as a radical, reforming and internationalist party.

Interestingly thats what John Curtice has been saying. I don't think they'll go that far but a commitment say to rejoin the single market or something similar could be a good policy for them.

 

[Busaholic]

Interestingly thats what John Curtice has been saying. I don't think they'll go that far but a commitment say to rejoin the single market or something similar could be a good policy for them.

They need to consider dropping the Lib part of their name imo, becoming the Social Democratic Party once again. It was a great shame that David Owen lost out to David Steel all those years ago, but Owen wasn't (and isn't) a team player and wasn't going to take many along with his own resistance to the merger with the Liberals. The last longstanding LibDem MP of a SDP disposition in the last government was Andrew George in the St Ives seat. He'd been Charles Kennedy's campaign manager when the latter stood for the leadership of the party, although he was the first to publically call for Kennedy's resignation once the extent of his drinking problems were about to be revealed. Down in Cornwall where the majority of seats were held by the Lib Dems in the 2010s, and the Labour Party has never held sway save for one seat occasionally. I feel a new SDP could gain momentum and representation if some can be attracted from the non-Corbynite Labour party.

 

[daodao]

They need to consider dropping the Lib part of their name imo, becoming the Social Democratic Party once again.

That would be counter-productive, as the greatest support for the LDs is in well-to-do cosmopolitan suburban areas. Liberalism and Socialism are not bedfellows.

 

[Mat17]

Liberalism is about free markets and laissez faire governance, yes this also includes social liberalism as well as economic freedom.

Socialism is about a managed economy, funded through taxation, with nationally owned companies and government involved in every facet of life. Think 1947 and 1948 when the railways, industries, health service etc. was nationalised.

Liberalism and Socialism indeed do not make good bedfellows.

 

[317 forever]

I wouldn't call the Lib Dems left TBH at least not in England - I would say they are an avowedly centrist socially liberal party and pretty much all their seats in England (with the possible exception of Farron's seat) and their main target seats contain lots of well educated voters who voted remain with very high property prices.

Ironically I think Brexit (and later Johnson becoming PM) actually saved the Lib Dems bacon (and gave them a renewed more coherent identity) and they've now ended up with more or less the electoral coalition that Clegg and the orange bookers desired a decade now when they entered coalition despite the fact that the most prominent orange bookers with the exception of Davey aren't in front line politics anymore.

Yes, all their current constituencies, including their 2019 gains, voted Remain with the possible exception of the Lonsdale area of Westmoreland & Lonsdale. (Westmoreland is in South Lakeland which voted Remain). Jo Swinson's legacy was to finally wipe them out of Leave constituencies such as Carshalton & Wallington and Eastbourne. Mind you, her own constituents might have found her scrap Article 50 policy undemocratic as she became the only MP in a Remain constituency to lose their seat.

 

[Acfb]

Yes, all their current constituencies, including their 2019 gains, voted Remain with the possible exception of the Lonsdale area of Westmoreland & Lonsdale. (Westmoreland is in South Lakeland which voted Remain). Jo Swinson's legacy was to finally wipe them out of Leave constituencies such as Carshalton & Wallington and Eastbourne. Mind you, her own constituents might have found her scrap Article 50 policy undemocratic as she became the only MP in a Remain constituency to lose their seat.

She was a completely cringeworthy leader. I don't actually completely blame her for her ultra remain stance (her own seat was ultra remain) or even losing her own seat given the different circumstances of Scotland but being too critical of Corbyn in relation to Johnson and the scattergun seat targeting was not terribly clever.

I was quite surprised how well the Lib Dems did in a swathe of constituencies in the South of England (in places like Surrey etc) that they nearly won in 2019 in spite of Jo Swinson TBH.

Ironically we would be probably in a better position if more people had voted Lib Dem in 2017 (who couldn't tolerate Brexit but were voting for May/Corbyn) and the Tories had actually won a small majority in that election.

As a Labour supporter I've always found it odd that more hard remain centrists voted for Labour under Corbyn in 2017 when Labour wasn't promising a 2nd referendum and then weren't happy when Labour was forced towards a more unambiguously pro remain position in 2019.

 

[davehsug]

That would be counter-productive, as the greatest support for the LDs is in well-to-do cosmopolitan suburban areas. Liberalism and Socialism are not bedfellows.

There is a long & proud history of Liberalism, and it would be sad to see it removed, however I have to take issue with your description of Social Democracy as socialism. Perhaps you are confusing it with Democratic Socialism - which is basically old Labour?

 

[Busaholic]

There is a long & proud history of Liberalism, and it would be sad to see it removed, however I have to take issue with your description of Social Democracy as socialism. Perhaps you are confusing it with Democratic Socialism - which is basically old Labour?

I certainly don't think Angela Merkel would be described as a socialist, other than by a rabid right winger!

 

[edwin_m]

I certainly don't think Angela Merkel would be described as a socialist, other than by a rabid right winger!

Angela Merkel is a Christian Democrat, not a Social Democrat. Roughly equivalent to the moderate wing the Tory party used to have.

 

[Revilo]

Yes, all their current constituencies, including their 2019 gains, voted Remain with the possible exception of the Lonsdale area of Westmoreland & Lonsdale. (Westmoreland is in South Lakeland which voted Remain). Jo Swinson's legacy was to finally wipe them out of Leave constituencies such as Carshalton & Wallington and Eastbourne. Mind you, her own constituents might have found her scrap Article 50 policy undemocratic as she became the only MP in a Remain constituency to lose their seat.

Westmoreland & Lonsdale constituency voted Remain by 52%. However Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross voted Leave by 51% and is still held by the Lib Dems: https://maproom.net/demo/election-map/0.html (link is to map of UK constituencies including referendum result).

 

[Butts]

LD Peer and former Leader Ming Campbell on my Flight from LHR to EDI tonight ....so much for their Green Credentials !!

To be fair as I went to get the Airlink 100 he was heading towards the Tram into the City restoring a bit of eco sang froid.

Chauffeur driven Limousines must be a distant memory !!!

 

[brad465]

LD Peer and former Leader Ming Campbell on my Flight from LHR to EDI tonight ....so much for their Green Credentials !!

To be fair as I went to get the Airlink 100 he was heading towards the Tram into the City restoring a bit of eco sang froid.

Chauffeur driven Limousines must be a distant memory !!!

The most shocking thing about that is he's still alive

 

[Busaholic]

The most shocking thing about that is he's still alive

He always appeared older than he was: he's only 80.

 

[TravelDream]

LD Peer and former Leader Ming Campbell on my Flight from LHR to EDI tonight ....so much for their Green Credentials !!

To defend the bloke, he's done the route frequently for well over three decades and probably just chooses the quickest, cheapest and most convenient option which is even more important both at his age and when you do it frequently. He also looked in his 80s over a decade ago so probably appreciates the help he gets with his luggage and increased accessibility on aircraft.

And I am not sure he ever would have had 'limousines;. Lib Dem leader is hardly a glamour post.

 

[Busaholic]

To defend the bloke, he's done the route frequently for well over three decades and probably just chooses the quickest, cheapest and most convenient option which is even more important both at his age and when you do it frequently. He also looked in his 80s over a decade ago so probably appreciates the help he gets with his luggage and increased accessibility on aircraft.

And I am not sure he ever would have had 'limousines;. Lib Dem leader is hardly a glamour post.

When he became leader of the LDs it was revealed his pride and joy was a Jaguar XJS, 5 litre plus, blue in colour iirc, and he was attacked by some of his own party members for not being 'green.' Don't know whether it went in the end, but he certainly resisted at first. Can't say I blame him, it looked a beauty, not thar I've ever been behind the wheel of such a 'gas guzzler.'

To defend the bloke, he's done the route frequently for well over three decades and probably just chooses the quickest, cheapest and most convenient option which is even more important both at his age and when you do it frequently. He also looked in his 80s over a decade ago so probably appreciates the help he gets with his luggage and increased accessibility on aircraft.

And I am not sure he ever would have had 'limousines;. Lib Dem leader is hardly a glamour post.

When he became leader of the LDs it was revealed his pride and joy was a Jaguar XJS, 5 litre plus, blue in colour iirc, and he was attacked by some of his own party members for not being 'green.' Don't know whether it went in the end, but he certainly resisted at first. Can't say I blame him, it looked a beauty, not that I've ever been behind the wheel of such a 'gas guzzler.'

 

[Butts]

I should really have approached him when he was standing next to me at the baggage carousel and asked him for the answer the thread originally posed.

Wonder how many other Scottish Politicians eschew the evils of Air Transportation whilst taking advantage of it themselves ?

Orkney and Shetland's Liberal MP must surely be another and has a legitimate excuse to go par avion.

 

[TravelDream]

When he became leader of the LDs it was revealed his pride and joy was a Jaguar XJS, 5 litre plus, blue in colour iirc, and he was attacked by some of his own party members for not being 'green.' Don't know whether it went in the end, but he certainly resisted at first. Can't say I blame him, it looked a beauty, not thar I've ever been behind the wheel of such a 'gas guzzler.'

But it isn't a 'limousine' and he drove it himself. He was criticised for owning a gas-guzzler, but not for being chauffeured driven as the other poster said.

Despite what some Tory MPs think, MPs earn a very decent salary and people on those sorts of salaries might have a vintage car or two if they are interested in that area (as he is).

 

[Busaholic]

But it isn't a 'limousine' and he drove it himself. He was criticised for owning a gas-guzzler, but not for being chauffeured driven as the other poster said.

Despite what some Tory MPs think, MPs earn a very decent salary and people on those sorts of salaries might have a vintage car or two if they are interested in that area (as he is).

I was adding to the point jokingly(?) querying his Green Credentials. Personally, I wouldn't have an argument then or now with him owning such a car, and driving it if it gives him pleasure, and I've voted LibDem in every General Election, bar one, since the 1980s

 

[Cloud Strife]

What other option did they have? Support Brown? Who at the time was being blamed for the financial crisis....

They should have held the Tories to ransom by telling them that it was genuine proportional representation or nothing. Clegg was riding high, and it would have been an extraordinary gamble on the part of both Brown and Cameron to go for a second election. Brown in particular was clinging on by that point, a second election may well have caused Labour to fall behind the Lib Dems in terms of the popular vote.

The Tories must have delighted with the eventual agreement on the PR referendum, because it was guaranteed to confuse the electorate and be rejected.

 

[GusB]

LD Peer and former Leader Ming Campbell on my Flight from LHR to EDI tonight ....so much for their Green Credentials !!

To be fair as I went to get the Airlink 100 he was heading towards the Tram into the City restoring a bit of eco sang froid.

Chauffeur driven Limousines must be a distant memory !!!

You're hardly in a position to criticise when you were using the same mode of transport! What's wrong with taking the train from London to Edinburgh? Hypocrite!

Wonder how many other Scottish Politicians eschew the evils of Air Transportation whilst taking advantage of it themselves ?

Orkney and Shetland's Liberal MP must surely be another and has a legitimate excuse to go par avion.

Members of Parliament will have to weigh up the pros and cons of using a particular means of transport against how much work they'll be able to do in their constituencies when they get there. The sleeper seems like the natural way to travel for MPs who reside on the UK mainland, but for those who reside on the islands that's not always going to be an option, either in terms of cost or time. You mentioned the MP for Orkney and Shetland - while I cannot stand Alistair Carmichael, I really don't grudge him the option of flying if it means that he's able to perform his duties as an MP without being completely knackered from travelling.

 

[XAM2175]

What's wrong with taking the train from London to Edinburgh? Hypocrite!

LNER's attendants aren't as grovelling as BA's, if I remember the gist of his posts correctly.

 

[Butts]

LNER's attendants aren't as grovelling as BA's, if I remember the gist of his posts correctly.

More a case of being on a connecting flight back to Edinburgh from Athens.

I've always liked Ming Campbell, I can remember when he was a half decent Athlete in the sprinting stakes (just about)

An honourable politician in the class of Shirley Williams or Ken Clarke.

 

[TravelDream]

They should have held the Tories to ransom by telling them that it was genuine proportional representation or nothing. Clegg was riding high, and it would have been an extraordinary gamble on the part of both Brown and Cameron to go for a second election. Brown in particular was clinging on by that point, a second election may well have caused Labour to fall behind the Lib Dems in terms of the popular vote.

Definitely.
The whole Additional Vote referendum was a complete joke. It was obviously going to fail and he should have just pushed for it to be put in place. Though, TBF, AV is not particularly proportional and wouldn't have helped the LDs massively.

LNER's attendants aren't as grovelling as BA's, if I remember the gist of his posts correctly.

Must not be like any BA crew I have had...

 

[Acfb]

They should have held the Tories to ransom by telling them that it was genuine proportional representation or nothing. Clegg was riding high, and it would have been an extraordinary gamble on the part of both Brown and Cameron to go for a second election. Brown in particular was clinging on by that point, a second election may well have caused Labour to fall behind the Lib Dems in terms of the popular vote.

The Tories must have delighted with the eventual agreement on the PR referendum, because it was guaranteed to confuse the electorate and be rejected.

The Tories were never likely to budge on 'real' electoral reform. With the benefit of hindsight they should have said no to the AV referendum and could have maybe blocked the NHS reforms and/or frozen tuition fees with much better negotiation skills though.

Water under the bridge though, ironically their previous presence in the coalition and the fallout from Brexit is now benefiting them somewhat in the South of England.

 

[Horizon22]

Definitely.
The whole Additional Vote referendum was a complete joke. It was obviously going to fail and he should have just pushed for it to be put in place. Though, TBF, AV is not particularly proportional and wouldn't have helped the LDs massively.


Must not be like any BA crew I have had...

AV referendum was a massive fudge - STV is the Lib Dems generally preferred PR option but that would have been unpalatable to the Tories and might not have got anywhere anyway, so you ended up with AV referendum which nobody was super pumped about.

Electoral (and constitutional) reform is significant part of LD policy so next time (we assume LDs make gains in the Tory “blue wall” and Labour get their act together), they have to insist on it without a referendum. I personally feel electoral reform would resolve a lot of problems - no such thing as “safe seats” or “tactical voting” (to the same degree) and gives people more choice about what their vote means.

 

[nw1]

I do find it rather hard to understand why Lib Dem support is not higher, as I think I have said before.

I have variously voted Labour and Lib Dem generally for tactical reasons, as I can tolerate either. The Lib Dems to me seem the ideal party for those who are liberal in outlook, accepting of minorities, internationalist and non-xenophobic, and dislike patriotism and flag-waving - yet perhaps are not prepared to sign up to a socialist agenda (not that Labour are truly socialist, though). (That said I personally don't have too much of a problem with a somewhat-socialist agenda, which means I could equally vote Lab or Lib)

For that reason I was really disappointed that they didn't do better in 2019. Why so many people in remain seats voted for a hard-right nationalist party (Johnson's Tories) in 2019 is beyond me - particularly as many of the Tory candidates (I won't name names, but there is one near me) come across as duplicitous and patronising individuals who claimed to be remainers but helped Johnson's deal go through. Deeply sad. Seems people were frightened of Corbyn - and I am no particular fan of Corbyn - but a Lab/Lib coalition in 2019 would have, I am sure, excluded any of Corbyn's more controversial policies.

But I will admit I don't "get" the cult of Brexit. I don't understand why so many people think it's a good thing, when it gives no tangible benefits and just causes a whole load of problems and difficulties. It seems to be all about meaningless nationalism and patriotism - "Make Britain Great Again" - the same sort of motivation that put Trump in the White House for a while.

Ironically the two-party system of the US is what prevents the right having such a stranglehold on US politics compared to the UK, as the opposition is not split. Lab and Lib should have cottoned onto that in 2019 and formed a temporary alliance, again deeply sad that party pride scuppered that from happening.

 

[Horizon22]

I do find it rather hard to understand why Lib Dem support is not higher, as I think I have said before.

I have variously voted Labour and Lib Dem generally for tactical reasons, as I can tolerate either. The Lib Dems to me seem the ideal party for those who are liberal in outlook, accepting of minorities, internationalist and non-xenophobic, and dislike patriotism and flag-waving - yet perhaps are not prepared to sign up to a socialist agenda (not that Labour are truly socialist, though). (That said I personally don't have too much of a problem with a somewhat-socialist agenda, which means I could equally vote Lab or Lib)

For that reason I was really disappointed that they didn't do better in 2019. Why so many people in remain seats voted for a hard-right nationalist party (Johnson's Tories) in 2019 is beyond me - particularly as many of the Tory candidates (I won't name names, but there is one near me) come across as duplicitous and patronising individuals who claimed to be remainers but helped Johnson's deal go through. Deeply sad. Seems people were frightened of Corbyn - and I am no particular fan of Corbyn - but a Lab/Lib coalition in 2019 would have, I am sure, excluded any of Corbyn's more controversial policies.

But I will admit I don't "get" the cult of Brexit. I don't understand why so many people think it's a good thing, when it gives no tangible benefits and just causes a whole load of problems and difficulties. It seems to be all about meaningless nationalism and patriotism - "Make Britain Great Again" - the same sort of motivation that put Trump in the White House for a while.

Ironically the two-party system of the US is what prevents the right having such a stranglehold on US politics compared to the UK, as the opposition is not split. Lab and Lib should have cottoned onto that in 2019 and formed a temporary alliance, again deeply sad that party pride scuppered that from happening.

Media coverage is one aspect and the continued perception of it being a “two party country”. People often vote for the “least worst option too” so not so much they voted for Johnson but AGAINST Corbyn because - rightly or wrongly - many softer Tories saw him as just too radical and a threat to their way of living.

The LDs are in almost a chicken & egg scenario; can’t get coverage without representation but can’t get MPs without coverage.

Obviously the big hit was the coalition / tuition fees. The Lib Dems positioned themselves as a fresh approach and then alienated a number of left-leaning supporters due to their actions in the coalition. Whether this was fair is neither here nor there - the Tories capitalised well in 2015 and being the junior partner they really suffered & have never quite recovered. Much of the electorate seem them as a bit of joke now. Or they can’t visualise the shift from good working local councillors to say, running the country.

I would say there are signs of sustained rocevry though - a huge growth in 2nd places, a thumping by-election win, a more back-to-basics approach to winnable seats and a realisation that they can’t overstretch (Some of Jo Swinson’s remarks in 2019 were fanciful). Could double their seats at the next election if they play their cards right.