Where will the last semaphore signals be on the national network?

[Efini92]

Rainford junction. I can’t see them ever going unless they create a through service from Wigan to Liverpool.

 

[karlos]

I find it puzzling that Network Rail have problems sourcing parts for mechanical signal boxes. With the number of boxes that have closed in the last couple of decades you'd think they'd have enough block instruments, repeaters, point rodding etc to fill a warehouse.

 

[John Webb]

I find it puzzling that Network Rail have problems sourcing parts for mechanical signal boxes. With the number of boxes that have closed in the last couple of decades you'd think they'd have enough block instruments, repeaters, point rodding etc to fill a warehouse.

I'm not certain that it's necessarily parts that are the problem, more the fewer people with the skills to maintain such equipment. I understand, for example, maintaining the interlocking on a mechanical frame requires particular skills which not many people have as retirements have taken place.

 

[Annetts key]

I'm not certain that it's necessarily parts that are the problem, more the fewer people with the skills to maintain such equipment. I understand, for example, maintaining the interlocking on a mechanical frame requires particular skills which not many people have as retirements have taken place.

Network Rail still employ locking fitters, which are the staff that maintain mechanical interlocking. The problems I would imagine are two fold.

The first problem is that most signalling maintenance and installation staff have to be able to demonstrate competence.

General maintenance is performed regularly so should not be a problem, but the knowledge and skills for repair, alterations or similar work are a lot harder if this work is occasional, and as the number of installations falls, it gets increasing difficult to retain this, and even harder to have people who can train new staff.

The second problem is that although most purely mechanical components can be replicated without the cost being excessive, some of the electrical-mechanical parts are significantly more difficult to manufacture at reasonable cost in small numbers. Hence as cost is important, other solutions will often be considered.

Just because there were thousands of an item made originally, does not mean that there will be any significant number of useable spares. Especially if they wear, or degrade in service.

It’s not uncommon to have a large stockpile of the parts that generally don’t wear out or go wrong, but a lack of or very low numbers of the parts that wear, or are less reliable… And/or a pile of equipment where they have already been robbed of the parts that wear, or are less reliable…

These problems are not limited to mechanical signalling, the railways are suffering from similar problems with older electrical and electronic signalling systems and equipment as well.

 

[snowball]

I seem to remember reading about 20 years ago that BR, or Railtrack, or Network Rail, whichever it was at the time, was recruiting in India for technicians with mechanical signalling experience.

 

[Western 52]

There are presumably plenty of S&T staff with experience of mechanical signalling on our many preserved railways. Maybe a role for them with Network Rail, unless they are all retired from NR of course!

 

[Neo9320]

There are presumably plenty of S&T staff with experience of mechanical signalling on our many preserved railways. Maybe a role for them with Network Rail, unless they are all retired from NR of course!

A consulting role perhaps? Make a tidy sum charging an extortionate daily rate lol

 

[MadMac]

I seem to remember reading about 20 years ago that BR, or Railtrack, or Network Rail, whichever it was at the time, was recruiting in India for technicians with mechanical signalling experience.

They brought several locking fitters in from India about 15 years ago for work in the Stockport area.

 

[Signal_Box]

IIRC on the original timescale of elimination of former Western Region boxes Tondu was scheduled to close somewhere around 2050!

Neath & Brecon was circa 2050, although they only have 2 mechanical signals.

 

[D6130]

Sorry to bump an old thread but there is a semaphore distant approaching Hellifield from Gisburn. You can see it from the Gisburn -Hellifield road just by where the B road goes off to Hellifield. Its on the right coming from Gisburn.
No idea if it is a fixed one or not but it doesnt look like it.

On my day trip to Buxton today, I noticed that there is still a mechanically-worked semaphore distant on the Down line at Chapel-en-le-Frith. I missed the one on the Up line, so I couldn't say for sure what type it is. Maybe someone could enlighten us? @furnessvale perhaps?

 

[DJ_K666]

Aren't the ones at Littlehampton listed? Or was that Bognor Regis?

 

[zwk500]

Aren't the ones at Littlehampton listed? Or was that Bognor Regis?

Isn't it usually the Box or the station that's listed, with the signals forming part of the listing? Either way, if NR decide they need to replace the semaphores for operational reasons then it's perfectly possible to get permission to do so (or amend the listing).

 

[MarkyT]

There are presumably plenty of S&T staff with experience of mechanical signalling on our many preserved railways. Maybe a role for them with Network Rail, unless they are all retired from NR of course!

While not 'plenty', there are a fair number of retired ex-NR, RT and BR people active in heritage S&T departments with relevant experience. Some help NR out occasionally, for example assisting sourcing rare parts for installations on the national network.

Isn't it usually the Box or the station that's listed, with the signals forming part of the listing? Either way, if NR decide they need to replace the semaphores for operational reasons then it's perfectly possible to get permission to do so (or amend the listing).

That's usually the case. An example is Scarborough station, where Falsgrave signal box survives out of use, but remaining semaphores were removed at resignalling. The big signal gantry structure immediately outside the SB was specifically included as part of the listing for the SB (a separate listing from the station in this case) and was removed to the NYMR for preservation, being reerected in a shortened form at Grosmont.

 

[Backroom_boy]

So last semaphore seems to be still too far off to call. So how about last semaphore controlling an Intercity route?

 

[zwk500]

So last semaphore seems to be still too far off to call. So how about last semaphore controlling an Intercity route?

Well, that's that particular can of worms blown wide open. Potential answers ranger from 'none - they're all gone already on major routes' to 'the ones at Worcester/Inverness will be the last ones to go'.

I fear to ask, but what did you mean by an Intercity route?

 

[Backroom_boy]

Well, that's that particular can of worms blown wide open. Potential answers ranger from 'none - they're all gone already on major routes' to 'the ones at Worcester/Inverness will be the last ones to go'.

I fear to ask, but what did you mean by an Intercity route?

Ha ha OK, let's define an Intercity route as one with an Intercity service running over it.

 

[zwk500]

Ha ha OK, let's define an Intercity route as one with an Intercity service running over it.

Again, same caveat about what is an Intercity service (do TPE count?), But personally Cornwall would probably be a good bet. No idea what the programme originally was, I did find a document somewhere but goodness only knows if I'll be able to locate it again.

 

[Railsigns]

Well, that's that particular can of worms blown wide open. Potential answers ranger from 'none - they're all gone already on major routes' to 'the ones at Worcester/Inverness will be the last ones to go'.

Inverness lost its semaphore signals in 1987.

 

[skyhigh]

I wouldn't be surprised if Harrogate-York ends up being some of the last semaphores. A fair amount of signalling work converting to electric tokenless block yet the semaphores still remain.

There is a distant at Cattal on the down (Harrogate) direction that is definitely not fixed, but something in my head tells me it only moves with the stop signal that's on the same post, so I'm not sure how it's controlled?

 

[Ken H]

I wouldn't be surprised if Harrogate-York ends up being some of the last semaphores. A fair amount of signalling work converting to electric tokenless block yet the semaphores still remain.

There is a distant at Cattal on the down (Harrogate) direction that is definitely not fixed, but something in my head tells me it only moves with the stop signal that's on the same post, so I'm not sure how it's controlled?

is it 'slotted'. a device at the signal that only allows the distant to come off if the stop is off. maybe something to do with the crossing.???

 

[najaB]

Inverness lost its semaphore signals in 1987.

Inverness did, but intercity trains to Inverness will pass multiple semaphore signals en-route.

 

[baz962]

I keep wondering to ask what about Manton . Corby , Oakham and Melton mowbray . What do the good people of the forum think about that route.

 

[TheBigD]

I keep wondering to ask what about Manton . Corby , Oakham and Melton mowbray . What do the good people of the forum think about that route.

No semaphores on the Manton to Corby section. Route controlled from Derby EMCC for the last 5+(?) years. Semaphores still on the Melton to Oakham section though. Not aware of any plans to resignal the Leicester to Peterborough line.

 

[MarkyT]

Reprising my post #210 from earlier this year:

When I joined the Western Region S&T department in 1983, an old hand in the drawing office said (ironically, just to be clear) something on the lines of "management have assured us that now the power signalling programme is underway, the last mechanical boxes and semaphores will be retired by the end of the 1970s!".

He may have said 'by the end of the 70s' Perhaps he meant the 2070s

 

[Parallel]

Are there any plans for replacement of the semaphores at Yeovil Pen Mill? That whole line between Castle Cary to Weymouth seems to use a range of methods, I believe tokens operate at Maiden Newton.

 

[MarkyT]

Are there any plans for replacement of the semaphores at Yeovil Pen Mill? That whole line between Castle Cary to Weymouth seems to use a range of methods, I believe tokens operate at Maiden Newton.

Maiden Newton has tokens to Yeovil Pen Mill and Tokenless Block to Dorchester. The station passing loop's control is split between the boxes. There's a Dorchester colour light signal controlling single line access the south end and a Yeovil stop board at the north. The train crew withdraw or insert tokens from instruments in platform huts under instruction from the Yeovil Penn Mill signaller in a NSTR configuration. Penn Mill was wholly WR lower quadrant until a few years ago (+ some colour lights also controlled by the lever frame at the Castle Cary end). Upper quadrant replacements were introduced later at the Weymouth end of the station when the structures needed renewing. TCB working applies between Penn Mill and Castle Cary, using axle counters.

 

[D6130]

Inverness did, but intercity trains to Inverness will pass multiple semaphore signals en-route.

There are still semaphore signals at Stanley Junction , Dunkeld & Birnam, Blair Atholl, Dalwhinnie and Kingussie.

 

[zwk500]

Are there any plans for replacement of the semaphores at Yeovil Pen Mill? That whole line between Castle Cary to Weymouth seems to use a range of methods, I believe tokens operate at Maiden Newton.

Not any time soon, although they will probably go if the 1tph regular service happens as the tokens will need to go for that.

 

[Ken H]

Rereading this thread i tend to think 'not in my lifetime'. I will be 100 in 2056!

 

[zwk500]

Rereading this thread i tend to think 'not in my lifetime'. I will be 100 in 2056!

On the signalbox.org page: https://signalbox.org/section-c/alterations-2048/ the latest mention of a definite semaphore box is 2048 for Bo-Peep Junction. However that list may well be very, very out of date as it lists Morpeth in 2056 which I think was acknowledged as not happening some time ago.