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Which is worse: Sat Navs or the Misguided Busway?

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Ivo

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On this evidence, the answer is that they are equally bad...

BBC: Sat-nav takes Yorkshire lorry along Cambridgeshire busway

Council bosses have defended signage on Cambridgeshire's guided busway after a lorry accidentally drove along it.

The 44-tonne Metcalfe's truck from Hawes in North Yorkshire was spotted by a dog walker as it drove about 300m (985ft) along the concrete track.

Company owner Peter Metcalfe said his driver had "relied too heavily on his sat-nav" and had been reprimanded.

A council spokesman said there were "extensive warning signs" but would look in to comments about the sat-nav.

Graham Hughes, director of strategy and development at the council, said: "There are clear and prominent signs on all the entry points.

"To be honest, we do struggle to understand how this driver, in broad daylight, managed to get on to the busway."

'Quite puzzled'

Mr Metcalfe apologised to the council but said the driver told him his navigation system did not give any warning about the concrete tracks, which guide buses along parts of Cambridgeshire.

"We don't usually deliver around the Longstanton area, or Cambridgeshire, so it wasn't something the driver had ever come across before," he said.

"However, I do think some people rely too heavily on sat-navs instead of reading the road signs."

Mr Hughes added: "Luckily nothing happened, no one was injured and the tracks weren't damaged, but it's a dangerous place to be unless you're a bus.

"We work closely with sat-nav companies but we will certainly be following up on that," he said.

"Drivers of all vehicles need to have a bit of common sense. Clearly this lorry driver didn't.

"He actually must have tried very hard to manoeuvre on to the busway. It's obviously not a regular road and we're quite puzzled how he managed it."

The council warned Mr Metcalfe that the company could be fined up to £1,000 if it happened again.

Even if it has exceeded expectations, the busway still seems like a waste of space. But for a sat nav to have sent a lorry down there is just ridiculous! I'm sure it wouldn't have happened if they had built the route the way it should have been (i.e. with rails)... ;)
 
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D841 Roebuck

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Probably using a Bonnie Tyler satnav:
- keeps telling you to turn around
- every now and then it falls apart
- NOT recommended for use in France
 

jopsuk

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Like Mr Hughes, I don't find the driver's story all that convincing. There never was a road at that point, so why on earth would the satnav be telling the driver to turn down it? Then there's the manouvering he'd have had to do..

And incidents of people turning down railway lines "becuase of the sat nav" do happen.
 

High Dyke

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Probably using a Bonnie Tyler satnav:
- keeps telling you to turn around
- every now and then it falls apart
- NOT recommended for use in France
Snigger ;)

It amuses me as i drive to work how many people rely on a sat-nav to negotiate a trip along the A1, and i see some of these vehicles on a daily basis. It shows the reliance people put on technology to be accurate - though you would hope a navigation system would be up to date... :|

I do have a sat-nav, for when i was a coach driver. It usually sits in the drawer at home doing very little. When me and the wife go out exploring we have an abundance of street atlases that serve us just as good.
 

starrymarkb

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I must say Google Maps navigation is great for Bristol - somewhere my nomally good sense of direction can't cope with - suspect it's the poor signage and confusing layouts. The last 3 gig venues I've tried to find I've managed first time (has previously taken me an hour to find the Bierkeller, 3 laps of the one way system to find the academy, and a complete SNAFU to find Arnos Vale!)
 

Ivo

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Arnos Vale is almost too easy to find though ;)

Just go along the A4 from either direction until you find, er, Arnos Vale.
 

ert47

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I've seen a couple of Black Cab drivers in London with satnavs which is a bit strange in my opinion.

But then I guess they can't give the excuse that they don't go south of the river any more!
 

starrymarkb

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Arnos Vale is almost too easy to find though ;)

Just go along the A4 from either direction until you find, er, Arnos Vale.

That was the plan, confusion at the roundabout by Temple Meads and being in the wrong lane fired me up the Wells Road! Things went wrong from there when I tried to find somewhere to turn round!

At least the Fleece was easy to find last Saturday as I'm going back there in November
 

radamfi

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I've seen a couple of Black Cab drivers in London with satnavs which is a bit strange in my opinion.

But then I guess they can't give the excuse that they don't go south of the river any more!

Some London taxi drivers only take the 'Knowledge' test for a selected region of Outer London (Suburban licence). Even a taxi driver who has an All London licence might find a satellite navigation system useful when driving outside the London area.
 

overthewater

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Probably using a Bonnie Tyler satnav:
- keeps telling you to turn around
- every now and then it falls apart
- NOT recommended for use in France

That also made me smile,

The truck driver must not be that smart, if he never show any of the road signs. I wonder who many passengers put there hands out, maybe there thought ohh its a new bus... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trailer_bus
 

High Dyke

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I wonder who many passengers put there hands out, maybe there thought ohh its a new bus...
I was sent to pick up a bus one Saturday morning from Lincoln Depot (when it used to be at St Mark's.) I had numerous people putting their hand out for me to stop - all of whom i ignored and drove passed. One lady even rang to complain, so the Driver-in-charge asked her to describe the vehicle. She replied "it was all-over orange in colour with 'L' plates on it..." The D-I-C thanked her and hung up. Some people look, but they don't see. :|
 

tbtc

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I'm not sure how this is the busway's fault - there are regularly stories in the press about daft drivers who get stuck due to relying too much on their satnavs - the amount of idiots behind the wheel mean that there's no "idiot proof" way of keeping people off roads that they shouldn't go down.

Obviously some councils have to spend money warning people - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/first-ignore-your-sat-nav-roadsigns-go-up-7267586.html - but how foolproof can you make things?
 

jon0844

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I've used and reviewed goodness knows how many sat navs over the years and only once (in Germany) has one tried to get me to turn into a one way street - the wrong way (and presumably it was a recent change) but I could see this and didn't turn, but must have looked rather stupid for a while as I got over to try!

Many systems let you configure the 'turn now' instruction to give you more or less warning, and there are other roads nearby then it can sound like it is saying to turn into something it isn't (that's when a quick look at the map should show if you're near the highlighted road or not).

In all cases, you still look with your eyes when driving and don't turn into a no entry, a railway line or off a cliff. You have to look anyway, in case there's a pedestrian crossing the side road to give way too, there's traffic, the road is closed etc.. so, personally, I could NEVER blame a satnav and can't see how anyone else could.

And how do you prove/disprove a satnav said to, as it could be a momentary loss of GPS signal that confused the system and so even doing the journey again might give a different result.

On a recent drive to Wales where my phone satnav software chose to freeze while driving (and needing to know the traffic situation to decide on two routes), I did realise how dependent you can get on technology. However, you can't let it actually take over your ability to make your own judgements.
 

jopsuk

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I'm not sure how this is the busway's fault -

It isn't at all the busway's fault. THe signage is obvious. It used to be a railway line, so should not appear as a road to satnavs.
 

anthony263

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I have a sat nav in my iceland home delivery when I am out driving. However the van I have parked outside my house right now had dodgy electrics so sat nav and radio will not work.

That said I used my various colection of road maps including some home made which I drew myself in particular for the wildmill estate which is a concret jungle with some houses being set back a good bit from the road which is a nightmare if they have a lot of shopping and you have to carry it from the van.

Nothing beats local knowledge and common sense in my opinion
 

bluenoxid

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It isn't at all the busway's fault. THe signage is obvious. It used to be a railway line, so should not appear as a road to satnavs.

The problem is that what should happen and does happen can be two different things.
 

34D

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I'm surprised noone has said this, but could it have been that the satnav wanted him to turn into the track that parallels a lot of the bus way (not that that is any better)?
 

jopsuk

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if it did, the sat nav has a VERY dodgy map database. Before conversion, the whole width was the railway (no vehicular access), with it in use as a semi-official footpath in the interim. The track alongside is now a permissive foot, cycle and bridleway - private property owned by the busway (and thus the council)- the only motor vehicles allowed are maintenance ones. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that a sat nav should show the busway or the track as a route for a motor vehicle
 

Deerfold

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On this evidence, the answer is that they are equally bad...

BBC: Sat-nav takes Yorkshire lorry along Cambridgeshire busway

Even if it has exceeded expectations, the busway still seems like a waste of space. But for a sat nav to have sent a lorry down there is just ridiculous! I'm sure it wouldn't have happened if they had built the route the way it should have been (i.e. with rails)... ;)

Can't resist a chance to have a dig at the Busway can you?

What does it have to do, if even exceeding expectations isn't good enough?
 

starrymarkb

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have to agree, it seems to be doing well, I suspect in hindsight the council may have done some things differently the scheme seems to be functioning well.

Of course if it does well then people will say it should have justified being a train. But would the train have made the same success given it wouldn't serve the town centres or estates on route like the bus can? Buses are suited to short local journeys...
 

bb21

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I can't figure out how the busway can possibly be at fault here.

It is a white elephant, granted, however you cannot guard against stupidity and that is the sole reason for this incident.
 

Ivo

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I can't figure out how the busway can possibly be at fault here.

It is a white elephant, granted, however you cannot guard against stupidity and that is the sole reason for this incident.

It isn't, and stupidity is always going to be a problem - but Deerfold is pretty spot on here:

Can't resist a chance to have a dig at the Busway can you?

:p

Of course, there are numerous flaws with it, but that's for another thread - or rather it would be if not already done to death...
 

radamfi

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The choice had to be between bus and tram as the train route would have given poor access to Cambridge city centre. And I suppose a semi-rural tram of that length would be difficult to justify when big city trams were being refused. However, if patronage continues to grow dramatically there may be a case for a tram conversion in the future. In the Netherlands, a busway in Utrecht is now being converted to a tram as the double-articulated buses can no longer cope. The very long Schiphol-Haarlem busway was built so that it could be converted to tram in the future.

However, given the strong vitriol against Metrolink, there would be almost as vociferous complaints against a tram conversion from St Ives to Cambridge. Some people will accept nothing other than a heavy rail conversion.
 

tbtc

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if patronage continues to grow dramatically there may be a case for a tram conversion in the future. In the Netherlands, a busway in Utrecht is now being converted to a tram as the double-articulated buses can no longer cope. The very long Schiphol-Haarlem busway was built so that it could be converted to tram in the future

...and the Guided Busway in Edinburgh has been closed so that it could be converted to tram. This is one of the advantages of a busway - it allows a service to be up and running a lot faster/ cheaper than a train, to see if demand can be justified in the longer term - if not then keep it as a guided busway.

Some people will accept nothing other than a heavy rail conversion.

Sadly true.

It's not a "one size fits all" world though, which is why I think there's a role for trains, trams, guided buses, conventional buses etc
 

Deerfold

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I can't figure out how the busway can possibly be at fault here.

It is a white elephant, granted, however you cannot guard against stupidity and that is the sole reason for this incident.

A white elephant? Perhaps, but one which seems to be increasing ridership - Stagecoach have increased their services from the 6bph they promised to 8bph, including extending services to Peterborough (1bph) and Huntingdon Hospital (2bph).
 

bb21

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A white elephant? Perhaps, but one which seems to be increasing ridership - Stagecoach have increased their services from the 6bph they promised to 8bph, including extending services to Peterborough (1bph) and Huntingdon Hospital (2bph).

There are cheaper ways of going about it though without dedicated tracks, etc, and other expensive infrastructure. It is a bus service at the end of the day. I never quite understand the concept of a busway. It is neither one or the other.
 

Deerfold

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There are cheaper ways of going about it though without dedicated tracks, etc, and other expensive infrastructure. It is a bus service at the end of the day. I never quite understand the concept of a busway. It is neither one or the other.

You still need an extra road lane or to reduce road space for other traffic. And normal bus lanes get other traffic illegally using them - much harder in a busway. And a council can provide a minimum specification for buses allowed to use it. And no taxis can use them.
 

bb21

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Provided that dedicated space is allowed in the same manner as a busway, is there really any need for dedicated tracks, etc?
 
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