Which Loco Operator Will be the First to delete Yellow Ends

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thetangoman

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Just a quick question for debate.

Which operator do you think will be the first to run a "loco" in revenue with NO yellow front ends.

Cheers
Russell
 
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Clansman

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Transpennine Express. Pretty much a foregone conclusion that they'll be the first ones without yellow front ends on a locomotive when they run 68s with Mk5s soon.
 

crehld

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Pretty sure the Class 345s for Cross Rail / TfL Rail will be in service before then - though it's a multiple unit, not loco.
 

pdeaves

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Slight aside: I know yellow ends are not mandatory (provided lighting, etc. complies with certain standards), but why do operators want to go for black? The Crossrail units have black ends and the artists' impressions for Transpennine class 802s and the Merseyrail units all have black. Couldn't the designers get the side colour to continue round the front? The Merseyrail units even have yellow sides!
 

gg1

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Slight aside: I know yellow ends are not mandatory (provided lighting, etc. complies with certain standards), but why do operators want to go for black? The Crossrail units have black ends and the artists' impressions for Transpennine class 802s and the Merseyrail units all have black. Couldn't the designers get the side colour to continue round the front? The Merseyrail units even have yellow sides!
Maybe the most visible colour in bright sunshine when the marker lights are at their least effective??
 

randyrippley

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The RAF paint their training aircraft high visibility black, it stands out better at a distance. So why not train end?
 

455driver

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Do we think there will be anymore units fitted with yellow ends even when they don't have to be?
If they have any sense Yes, simply because a failed headlight on a unit with a yellow end means you just switch the other headlight on and carry on at linespeed, where as a unit with no yellow end is limited to 20mph simply because of a 'design' decision.
 

southern442

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Sorry, perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. What I meant was, is it likely that any completely new-build train classes will be fitted with yellow panels. At the moment, the 700's, 707's and 800/801/802's are being built, and they do have yellow panels, however they are in the later stages of production. I know that the 710's for LO are being built without, but is it likely that any proposed or ordered classes, or those that ere being built but don't have a fully complete set finished yet, will be fitted?
 
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J-2739

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Slight aside: I know yellow ends are not mandatory (provided lighting, etc. complies with certain standards), but why do operators want to go for black? The Crossrail units have black ends and the artists' impressions for Transpennine class 802s and the Merseyrail units all have black. Couldn't the designers get the side colour to continue round the front? The Merseyrail units even have yellow sides!
Aren't the 710s going with an orange front?
 

WatcherZero

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Sorry, perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. What I meant was, is it likely that any completely new-build train classes will be fitted with yellow panels. At the moment, the 700's, 707's and 800/801/802's are being built, and they do have yellow panels, however they are in the later stages of production. I know that the 710's for LO are being built without, but is it likely that any proposed or ordered classes, or those that ere being built but don't have a fully complete set finished yet, will be fitted?
It will probably come down to the customer, theres no reason a completely new class has to have a yellow front end but some Tocs may prefer to have it for visual commonality with their existing liveries.
 

Bornin1980s

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Does the QP mean actual locomotives or multiple units? Because there is difference. Multiple units are built for just one purpose, and are often dedicated to just one area. Locomotives, on the other hand, might be called to any area at short notice, including areas which haven't approved running without yellow.

This is why I was surprised that the Transpennine 68s would apparently have no yellow. Wouldn't that limit their usefulness to owner DRS?
 
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Does the QP mean actual locomotives or multiple units? Because there is difference. Multiple units are built for just one purpose, and are often dedicated to just one area. Locomotives, on the other hand, might be called to any area at short notice, including areas which haven't approved running without yellow.

This is why I was surprised that the Transpennine 68s would apparently have no yellow. Wouldn't that limit their usefulness to owner DRS?
it's not the location that determines yellow ends or not it;s the standard and specification of lighting ...
 

JaJaWa

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Class 68, 397, 802: TPE: black ends
Class 345: Crossrail Elizabeth line: black ends
Class 399: Sheffield Supertram: black/blue ends
Class 710: London Overground: orange ends
Class 717: Great Northern: white ends
Class 720, FLIRTs: Greater Anglia: red/black/white ends
Class 800: Virgin Trains East Coast: red ends (rumoured)
Stadlers: Merseyrail: black/yellow ends
 

SpacePhoenix

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Would SWT's 444s, 450s and 458s be allowed to operate in whatever their new livery ends up being without yellow ends?
 

D365

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No, because their lights are not to standard. Wake up at the back! :roll:
I mean the Class 185 headlights are, but the paperwork required to authorise the relaxation of the regulation for a single class of unit is not particularly worth its time.


Class 720, FLIRTs: Greater Anglia: red/black/white ends
Just a minor point, but Class 720 refers to the Aventras. The FLIRTs (Merseyrail and Greater Anglia) don't have a designation yet ;)
 

jopsuk

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I'd like to have seen the Class 345 go into "standard" TfL livery (as used by Underground, Trams, Overground) but with purple where the red/green/orange is. I'd also like to see DLR do the same, with turquoise, but that's getting total wibble
 

SpacePhoenix

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I mean the Class 185 headlights are, but the paperwork required to authorise the relaxation of the regulation for a single class of unit is not particularly worth its time.
Is there a ton of paperwork required for that?

No, because their lights are not to standard. Wake up at the back! :roll:
The lights could easily be changed over to use LEDs. You can even get LED floodlights these days so it should be possible to bring them up-to standard
 

Domh245

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The lights could easily be changed over to use LEDs. You can even get LED floodlights these days so it should be possible to bring them up-to standard
Not quite as simple as that. The standards for headlamps require a minimum lit area (17,650mm^2 min), and a minimum lit dimension of 110mm - in practice a 150mm lit diameter. Marker lamps have values of 9500mm^2 min lit area and 110mm lit dimension. The BMAC lamps being installed on the current Hitachi and Siemens products (and retrofitted to other existing rolling stock) are 180mm and 170mm lit diameters for headlamps and markers respectively. Some very rough and ready measuring based on a reasonably head on picture of a 450 suggests that this isn't an issue though.

They could fall fall of the rules regarding how high the lights need to be situated, and will almost certainly not comply with the rules regarding their operation (specifically the need to be able to have 2 dimmed headlights on simultaneously for night time running)
 
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