Which Magazine: rail "second least-trusted consumer industry"

[AndrewE]

running late occasionally.

I think people trying to get to Scarborough, or to Manchester Airport for flights who get dumped en route might think that being told to get the next train constitutes a breach of trust.
If senior members here (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...fter-previous-service-cancelled.168046/page-3) don't trust the train to get them to an airport for a flight, why is anyone surprised that the public feel let down when the railway doesn't deliver after they have bought a ticket for a timetabled service to their destination?

 

[Passenger John]

I have totally given up train travel now. Living in Great Northern territory its just not worth the hassle, have even bought a second car so that we can both have freedom. I bet we are not the only ones to take this decision. Now for the controversial bit, is there a conspiracy theory by the government to drive people off the railway so they can say they are not being used so we can then redeploy Graling as another Beeching which I am sure he would enjoy.

 

[DarloRich]

Now for the controversial bit, is there a conspiracy theory by the government to drive people off the railway so they can say they are not being used so we can then redeploy Graling as another Beeching which I am sure he would enjoy.

put your tin foil hat back on - that is preposterous.

 

[sprunt]

Again, what other industries where readers invited to select. I can think of two others which purposely misled the public and caused harm: surely a more real definition of "breach of trust" than running late occasionally.

• Never mind car dealers, the manufacturers were in hot water over diesel emissions. A deliberate conspiracy which has had real public health consequences.
• Facebook and other social media operators sold user data to shady deep-state actors and foreign powers who manipulated elections to their own ends.
• The newspaper industry still has not got over the phone hacking scandal, another example of those at the top of these businesses ordering morally indefensible practices. Leveson enquiry was stopped after the first part following lobbying by newspaper industry.

It was a transport specific survey, so the latter two were never in the running. And yes, the car manufacturers' lying about diesel emissions was particularly bad, which should perhaps give the railways pause for thought - "We're even more distrusted than that?"

When a clean sheet fares system comes up for consultation, I imaging that it will be Which and its ilk that campaign "Save split ticketing"!

I imagine they're more likely to campaign for a system in which nonsense like split ticketing isn't required.

 

[underbank]

I have totally given up train travel now. Living in Great Northern territory its just not worth the hassle, have even bought a second car so that we can both have freedom. I bet we are not the only ones to take this decision. Now for the controversial bit, is there a conspiracy theory by the government to drive people off the railway so they can say they are not being used so we can then redeploy Graling as another Beeching which I am sure he would enjoy.

No, you're not the only ones. The last few months have been ridiculous up here in Northern land. The last straw was a few weeks ago when good old Northern cancelled the first Barrow>Preston train on a Sunday, meaning we couldn't make our connection for our booked Preston>Euston train for a special event for my daughter. Northern proved impossible to contact to find out if there was to be a RRB. Usual meaningless copy & paste replies on Twitter and Facebook. Cue lots of stress and a ruined special day out for my daughter who's just coming to terms with her mother's terminal cancer diagnosis. I used to be a regular rail user as much as possible, which is hard given the over-crowding, slow uncomfortable trains, poor frequency, slow services, etc., but now I've given up completely on the few Northern services which were not quite so inconvenient. Back to the car so at least I'm in control and not beholden to an entire industry based on greed and incompetence. I now have to get my fix of railways on the preserved lines which are usually run a lot more efficiently and with proper customer service.

 

[Clip]

I think people trying to get to Scarborough, or to Manchester Airport for flights who get dumped en route might think that being told to get the next train constitutes a breach of trust.
If senior members here (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...fter-previous-service-cancelled.168046/page-3) don't trust the train to get them to an airport for a flight, why is anyone surprised that the public feel let down when the railway doesn't deliver after they have bought a ticket for a timetabled service to their destination?

Unsure what you mean by senior members but you are twisting what people have written there to suit your own argument somewhat.

People have said on that thread that they would never leave so little time to get to an airport because they are realists and understand that things can go wrong - no matter the mode of transport - so they plan accordingly by leaving enough time.

 

[squizzler]

It was a transport specific survey, so the latter two were never in the running. And yes, the car manufacturers' lying about diesel emissions was particularly bad, which should perhaps give the railways pause for thought - "We're even more distrusted than that?"

I don't think the article that I linked to made it clear rail was only second least trusted in the mobility sector. I just read

In fact, this makes train travel one of the least-trusted consumer industries, beaten to last place only by car dealers.

and took that at face value that rail is second least trusted of all business sectors directly used by the general public. Arguably Which's article misleads consumers in that regard.

I imagine they're more likely to campaign for a system in which nonsense like split ticketing isn't required.

I hope so. But never underestimate people's selfishness when it comes to their own perks being taken away.

I hope the problems with timetables on Northern and GTR don't destroy the industries' confidence to making other long overdue and bold changes to the customer experience. I am concerned that a big bang style re-imagining of the fare system might end up being kicked into the long grass with the political fallout from the timetable change used as an excuse to maintain the status quo.

In this atmosphere where no 'trust credit' has been built quite small things can tip things over into distrust - there is not body of prior positive thoughts to make you think 'it's just a small mistake or issue'.

There is certainly a perceive wisdom that train travel is expensive and this leads to quite blatant examples of confirmation bias as people try to demonstrate this. For example in the days when I was signed up for facebook a local page was discussing train travel and somebody came up with a exorbitant price they said they were quoted for a long distance journey supposedly booked in advance. A quick check on national rail showed even the "day before" price to be a fraction of the quoted amount so I asked this person which sharp operator must have seen them coming to charge such an amount. Turns out the quoted fare was not "per seat" but for a party of two, with purchase of a railcard on top (minus deductions for said railcard).

 

[Starmill]

It would be easier to look at which aspects of the railway I do trust.

I trust that the train will remain on the tracks, and that I won't be injured by an accident with the train.

However, based on my years of experience travelling by train all over this country, there are many things I can't honestly say that I trust:

- That I will be sold the correct ticket if I ask at the ticket office
- That the website or ticket office will show me the fastest available journeys opportunity if I ask
- That there will be a way to buy my ticket before I board the train, on the train, or at my destination, without being accused directly or indirectly of fare evasion, or being treated as a potential criminal
- That if I have one, my valid ticket will be accepted by staff
- That any value for money ticket options will exist for my journey
- That there will be a visible member of staff on the train to ask for help if I need it
- That the train will be clean and comfortable
- That the trains will get me to my journey's end on time, or even within 10 minutes of time
- That, if I am delayed, my compensation will be paid correctly first-time, without a need to appeal, and within the time limit set out in the charter

If these things failed once or twice that wouldn't mean that I wouldn't trust them, but as these are systematic day-by-day failings, then I just do not trust them any more. There are many more but this is a good summary. These are based on hard experiences, although experience varies wildly. Sometimes not one of these problems affects my journey and I think to myself 'wow, the bare minimum standard was achieved today!'

 

[Starmill]

The Which? stuff does not mention the part the government and Network Rail play in "trust" and "value for money" on the railway.

The customer does not have a contaract with the Government or Network Rail for their travel though.

 

[3141]

I have totally given up train travel now. Living in Great Northern territory its just not worth the hassle, have even bought a second car so that we can both have freedom.

The freedom I get from using my car instead of the train is to be able to sit in traffic jams and enjoy the resulting stress; and if I used it to go to London I'd have the added freedom of the congestion charge and paying to park (if I could find somewhere).

Perhaps Which should also do a report "Do you trust the road system?" We're actually pushing both roads and railways to their limits and beyond in some areas. Once or twice a year I fly from Gatwick. I can get there in about 80 minutes by car and 100 minutes by train, if things go well. But I prefer to stay in a hotel the night before, because I cannot depend on either form of transport to get me there on time on the day of the flight. For journeys where time is not so critical, I use either the train or the car, but in both cases I'm aware that a delay may occur and therefore I may not arrive at the time shown in the timetable or on the AA journey planner.

 

[Skymonster]

As a semi-regular rail user, when it comes to trusting the industry I ask myself the following questions:

• Can I rely on the railway to get me to where I need to be at the time I need to be there? No
• Can I rely on the railway to give me a seat, even when I have paid a lot of money? No
• Can I rely on the railway to charge me the lowest fare for the journey I want to make? No
• Can I rely on the railway to sort things out and make good when things go wrong? No

I suspect I'm not alone. As a 'semi-knwledgable' user of the railways I can get around most of these challenges, but I begrudge having to make allowances for these issues. No doubt others who are less rail-savvy no doubt feel ripped off when they encounter problems, and lose trust as a result.

A number of issues have moved me to this point of view. Things like penalising customers travelling on advance tickets for being one minute late when the industry itself is not penalised for being a minute late. Like short forming trains without need to compensate customers. Like cancelling trains on Sunday's because insufficient staff volunteer to work, despite them being in the timetable. Like closing a ticket window when there is a queue of customers because it's time for a staff member's lunch break. Like having to take time to look for split tickets to get the lowest fares Like having to use personal time to take an earlier train to ensure a destination can be reached at a prescribed time. Like (in my current circumstances) replacing trains with buses that are of a far inferior standard, lengthening journey times, and forcing travel into the peak instead of offpeak and offering no compensation or consideration for that.

If there was one thing privatisation should have done, it was to instill a true private-sector sense of customer care into the rail industry. But it did not. That is partly because the industry is still bound by legislation, rules and agreements that it can hide behind when it comes to doing the right thing for its customers. And it's also because - deep down - those who run the industry know they don't need to deliver a gold-standard because most customers have no other choice and will be back no matter how they are treated.

So do I trust the railway? Actually I do trust it to get me safely where I need to be - albeit not in comfort I believe I should be entitled to expect, not at the time it says I will get there, and not at the best price. Do I trust the railway to have my interests - as a customer - at its heart? An emphatic no on that one.

 

[Bantamzen]

The above are good examples of what people on this forum might expect from the railways, however most passengers do not expect all those caveats to be met, nor do they even consider them. For most the questions will simply be:

• Will it get me there on time?
• How much will it cost and is it worth it?

And the answers will usually be:

• Probably not
• Definitely not

However, this is a refection of public perception, driven in part by some poorly performing parts without a doubt, but also negative press and coverage in social media. But the fact remains that many people do ultimately trust the rail network, evidenced in the fact that they still use it. Whether they think its value for money is a whole other matter of course.

For what its worth (and its not a lot according to some) but in the 20+ years I've been commuting things have generally got better in my little neck of the woods (West Yorkshire). Yes prices have gone up, but then they have with just about everything. But generally punctuality has improved, the stock is in better condition & has more capacity, and a vast majority of the time it can be relied upon.

So do I trust the railways? I currently have no reason not to. Do I think its too expensive? In parts, yes it is.

 

[WelshBluebird]

But the fact remains that many people do ultimately trust the rail network, evidenced in the fact that they still use it.

That isn't evidence that they actually trust the rail network, just that either they don't have any choice, or the other options are even worse / they trust them even less!

 

[Bantamzen]

That isn't evidence that they actually trust the rail network, just that either they don't have any choice, or the other options are even worse / they trust them even less!

If people didn't trust the rail network in the way implied by this Which article, they would be abandoning the rail network in droves. Car ownership alone is high enough amongst all but the youngest generations for a swift modal change if this trust to get them from A to B effectively evaporates.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If people didn't trust the rail network in the way implied by this Which article, they would be abandoning the rail network in droves. Car ownership alone is high enough amongst all but the youngest generations for a swift modal change if this trust to get them from A to B effectively evaporates.

I would say the decrease in car ownership is more related to things such as the cost of owning a car (especially when combined with housing costs), and the tendency for younger people to want to live in cities where long distance commuting is no longer required (and where parking can be a right pain), rather than being related to how good (or not) the rail network is.
Don't the latest numbers show passenger numbers ARE declining anyway?

 

[Bantamzen]

I would say the decrease in car ownership is more related to things such as the cost of owning a car (especially when combined with housing costs), and the tendency for younger people to want to live in cities where long distance commuting is no longer required (and where parking can be a right pain), rather than being related to how good (or not) the rail network is.
Don't the latest numbers show passenger numbers ARE declining anyway?

Well the average loadings seem to show a decline, but in many parts passenger entrances / exits show increase. So it really depends on what statistics you use, how they are collected / calculated and so on. The decrease in loadings could for example be consistent with increased use if capacity increases have been at a higher ratio than growth.

But I don't doubt passenger satisfaction is decreasing, especially with the current rounds of industrial actions across the network as well as large scale infrastructure projects overrunning (which will of course also be a factor in passenger numbers). But my point is that this particular article doesn't necessarily indicate an overall loss in trust persay, because for the most part the rail network does it's basic premise, get you from A to B. What it does, but in my opinion reflects a shift in perception which is as much driven by how the industry is reported on as it does user experience.

 

[yorkie]

I am aware of dozens cases recently where train companies have told people their (valid) tickets are not valid, and/or that their itinerary will not be honoured (especially in the current climate of timetable unreliability); treating these people badly is not a way to earn their trust.

In numerous cases referred to me, railway staff have attempted to blame the retailer. However this backfires if the customer checks with the retailer and the retailer confirms it was not them at fault. Quite why some staff think it is acceptable to behave this way I do not know, but it can really put some people off.

 

[mallard]

Quite why some staff think it is acceptable to behave this way I do not know, but it can really put some people off.

It's extremely obvious; it increases revenue. The vast majority of passengers who are told to buy new tickets simply do so without questioning it, so even if a minority do question it and are refunded and/or compensated, it's still a net increase in revenue for the TOC.

I'll also offer my unproven speculation that even staff that do not recieve comission for ticket sales do have their revenue gathering tracked as part of the "metrics" that TOC managers use to evaluate staff performance, with consiquent impact on promotion prospects, bonuses, etc. It's not the individual member of staff's fault, they're just doing their job. Blame the game, not the player.

 

[Mintona]

I'll also offer my unproven speculation that even staff that do not recieve comission for ticket sales do have their revenue gathering tracked as part of the "metrics" that TOC managers use to evaluate staff performance, with consiquent impact on promotion prospects, bonuses, etc. It's not the individual member of staff's fault, they're just doing their job. Blame the game, not the player.

This just doesn’t happen.

 

[mallard]

This just doesn’t happen.

That's interesting. So what kinds metrics do management track in the rail industry? (Sorry if this is going a bit off-topic...) In most jobs that have any form of selling/retail, total revenue collected is a very important performance metric.

 

[superkev]

If rail was 2nd least trusted what was 1st.
K

 

[Mintona]

That's interesting. So what kinds metrics do management track in the rail industry? (Sorry if this is going a bit off-topic...) In most jobs that have any form of selling/retail, total revenue collected is a very important performance metric.

Oh it’s definitely measured, but in my experience has never been used as a stick with which to ‘beat’ staff. No members of staff will deliberately sell tickets they know to be wrong just to try and reach a target. When I sold tickets there never was a target, you just sold what needed to be sold, and at no point were you ‘punished’ for not selling as many as others.

 

[lord rathmore]

IMO, Which Magazine should stick to comparing wheelbarrows and toasters. Since it was given a sort of "super status" by government it seems to be more and more concerned with unsubstantiated headline-grabbing articles.

 

[PeterC]

........... and at no point were you ‘punished’ for not selling as many as others.

What about rewarded for selling more?

 

[Mintona]

What about rewarded for selling more?

Nope, never happened. Only with commission if your T+Cs include such a thing, but it’s just up to you if you want it or not. No pressure to get it.

 

[3141]

I'll also offer my unproven speculation that even staff that do not recieve comission for ticket sales do have their revenue gathering tracked as part of the "metrics" that TOC managers use to evaluate staff performance, with consiquent impact on promotion prospects, bonuses, etc. It's not the individual member of staff's fault, they're just doing their job. Blame the game, not the player.

As it's an unproven speculation, how would the staff themselves know that their performance was being evaluated in terms of revenue gathering although they don't receive commission for it, and that their prospects for promotion and bonuses were being affected? It would be necessary for them to know all this, if they were adapting their behaviour as you suggest.

 

[Starmill]

The Railway industry often fails to offer customers value for money and high standards of service. In some cases they've admitted this themselves, or at least they haven't contradicted it.

Which? are rightly pointing this out. Quite why this has so many forum members riled up is something I don't have an answer to.

 

[zoneking]

The railway industry largely treats its customers with contempt. How many other businesses spend so much effort always trying to catch out, fine, prosecute their paying customers? What happened to 'the customer is always right'?
The industry frequently provides a poor or non existent service.

 

[Bertie the bus]

However, this is a refection of public perception, driven in part by some poorly performing parts without a doubt, but also negative press and coverage in social media. But the fact remains that many people do ultimately trust the rail network, evidenced in the fact that they still use it. Whether they think its value for money is a whole other matter of course.

Ah yes, blame the media. It's all their fault and nothing to do with the rail industry.

Based on your argument car salesmen must be far more trustworthy than the railway as far more of us have cars than travel by train, and estate agents must be the most trusted people on the planet or we would all be living on the street to avoid having to deal with them.

 

[yorksrob]

I trust that the network will get me where I need to be.

I don't trust that it will always provide value for money.

When Network Rail refuse to allow late evening passenger services, or instigate a years worth of weekend bus replacements on routes that aren't being upgraded, I don't trust them when they say that this is the only option and that the railway isn't being run for their convenience.