• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Which Magazine: rail "second least-trusted consumer industry"

Status
Not open for further replies.

nr758123

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2014
Messages
478
Location
West Yorkshire
Do I trust TPE not to terminate my train six miles short of Manchester and leave passengers to work out for themselves how to complete the journey? No, because it's something they do most days, often several times.

Re-establishing trust means seeing things from the passenger point of view, acknowledging there's a problem and taking actions to mitigate the disruption.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,504
From the amount of stories in disputes and prosecutions . I wouldnt trust govia run TOC to not attempt to prosecute me for holding a valid ticket

I allow an extra 30 minutes on my 1 hour journey to work because I do not trust the railway to deliver me to my destination on time even then I am sometimes still late and this is what I pay a ticket for . to deliver me to my destination according to their timetable

If I was disabled I would not trust the railway to be truthful on issues of booked assistance and step free access because they quite often fail on that matter

The lack of visible staffing at some stations. Poor policing of low level anti social behaviour means many people do not trust the railway with their safety
 

Bedpan

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
1,286
Location
Harpenden
Does anyone know the answer to this?

I thought the thread made it clear that it was car dealers. But when I went to double check I couldn't see that anywhere, so maybe I'm wrong in which case you shouldn't trust internet forums.
 

etr221

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2018
Messages
1,037
Does anyone know the answer to this?
I thought the thread made it clear that it was car dealers. But when I went to double check I couldn't see that anywhere, so maybe I'm wrong in which case you shouldn't trust internet forums.
It's there, but not conspicuous:
Falling trust and rising fares
Trust in the train industry is approaching its lowest point of the past six years, according to Which?’s consumer insight tracker.
In July 2018, only 23% of people told us that they trust train travel. This represents a six percentage-point drop compared with July 2017.
In fact, this makes train travel one of the least-trusted consumer industries, beaten to last place only by car dealers.

Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/08/have-trains-actually-improved-in-the-last-decade/ - Which?
 

the sniper

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2007
Messages
3,500
What about rewarded for selling more?

The people who do the most tickets, particularly in the Guard grade, in my experience are usually seen as liabilities by Guard Managers. They attract complaints, rightly or wrongly; are exposed to more risk of having to delay trains or being assaulted, which in the case of the latter can result in them having to be taken off trains while they recover; or can become distracted from their core role operating the train, have operational incidents as a result, with the result again that they're taken off trains. All this creates work for the managers that they don't want or often have time for if everyone's at it.

The only 'reward' is the commission. But even that comes and goes, goes up and down £/% wise in some TOCs come pay deal time, as it's seen by some as being more of a perk than an incentive.
 

LAX54

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2008
Messages
3,754
I'm amazed that the rail industry only came second. Which industry has worse customer relations? Is there another industry that creates a bizantine web of incomprehensible (to the average "customer") rules and restrictions and then actively employs people to issue substantial penalties to those who make minor and easily understandable mistakes?


Airlines are far worse than the Railways could ever be !

Fares change on a daily basis, once you have paid no refunds, if the flight is 2 hours late. so be it !
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,677
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Ah yes, blame the media. It's all their fault and nothing to do with the rail industry.

Based on your argument car salesmen must be far more trustworthy than the railway as far more of us have cars than travel by train, and estate agents must be the most trusted people on the planet or we would all be living on the street to avoid having to deal with them.

No, my point was that if the public at large did not trust the basic premise of the rail industry to get them from A to B they would abandon it in droves, something that is not so far evident in the figures.

To clarify I am not saying that the industry is blameless, far from it. However my previous posts are about how people perceive the industry at least as much through how it is portrayed in the media & social media as they do through actual experience. These are very powerful drivers in modern society, especially the latter. Opinions on all sorts of matters can sometimes be formed not through actual experiences that people have, but on how these medium view them. This opinion forming process can, and does effect how surveys are responded to. In fact I was on a train this Spring when the Transport Focus Surveys were handed out, and it was noticeable that of the few that did respond directly they had very strong views on their journey (even though the one I we were one was on time), meaning that most at least in the carriage I was in had no real opinion one way or another. Which (pun intended) is why you should not take this report completely at face value, at least in my opinion, especially when their report is not collated themselves but is an opinion based on cherry picking bits of third party data.

Of course none of this means the industry walks away smelling of roses. The latest timetable changes and chaos caused in some areas needs urgent attention, and eventually when the issues are identified & solutions put in place serious questions need to be asked of all concerned. And the current disputes with various TOCs also need resolutions, as does the convoluted & often way too complex fare systems need simplification (which I am aware could mean some increase to some fares). There is a very long way to go, but reports like this for me add little additional value other than to pitch the 'Which' subscriptions.
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
2,125
I find that all a bit odd. I wouldn't say rail wasn't trustworthy - it's not like they take your money then screw you over like say Ryanair do. It might be *expensive* at times, but that's different - they say they will charge you a fortune and then do, and then if they fail to do so give you a fair chunk (or all) of that fortune back without an awful lot of faff or argument in most cases.
Use Ryanair very frequently and never been screwed, would you like to expand on your post?
 

squizzler

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2017
Messages
1,903
Location
Jersey, Channel Islands
In terms of dis-trust, Which? had the railways second to car dealers.

As an indication as to why the railway is distrusted, the proportion of this forum devoted to fare queries and disputes, and similar issues, might be a good pointer...

And a piece here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/13/the-guardian-view-on-britains-railways-a-system-where-nobody-listens

The Guardian opinion piece linked to is quite illuminating: bring actual human interaction back into the process. I trust the railways because I was fortunate to live near a small station with familiar ticket staff. I had faith that they would sell the correct ticket for my journey and also, whilst never tested, be in my corner if there was a dispute.

Whilst this intimate service might not be scalable in a business such as railways where most all people buy their tickets electronically, perhaps forum members have ideas? Of course a revision of the fare structure (in fact I would suggest a total reimagining of people's relationship with train travel) is the necessary long term solution.

Perhaps people would be willing to provide more of their own data to the ticketing agent (trainline, loco2, etc) if the data held on the system filters out inappropriate options for everyday transitions.

Also from the article:

Yet, if there is one thing even more unpopular than the service and the price, it may be the compensation system. It isn’t merely the fact the compensation is complex and impersonal that is the problem, though that is true. It is also that the different companies operate different claims systems. Consumers face a methodological maze. Not surprisingly, most of them give it up as a bad job. Which? reckoned this week that only one in three passengers who are entitled to a refund actually apply.

Abandon the blanket right for refund. Allow customers buying a ticket to add on travel insurance for a small surcharge when their journey is high stakes. Make this travel insurance easy to claim for more resources can be given to each claim because fewer people will be in a position to claim.

No, my point was that if the public at large did not trust the basic premise of the rail industry to get them from A to B they would abandon it in droves, something that is not so far evident in the figures.

To clarify I am not saying that the industry is blameless, far from it. However my previous posts are about how people perceive the industry at least as much through how it is portrayed in the media & social media as they do through actual experience. These are very powerful drivers in modern society, especially the latter. Opinions on all sorts of matters can sometimes be formed not through actual experiences that people have, but on how these medium view them. This opinion forming process can, and does effect how surveys are responded to. In fact I was on a train this Spring when the Transport Focus Surveys were handed out, and it was noticeable that of the few that did respond directly they had very strong views on their journey (even though the one I we were one was on time), meaning that most at least in the carriage I was in had no real opinion one way or another. Which (pun intended) is why you should not take this report completely at face value, at least in my opinion, especially when their report is not collated themselves but is an opinion based on cherry picking bits of third party data.

Of course none of this means the industry walks away smelling of roses. The latest timetable changes and chaos caused in some areas needs urgent attention, and eventually when the issues are identified & solutions put in place serious questions need to be asked of all concerned. And the current disputes with various TOCs also need resolutions, as does the convoluted & often way too complex fare systems need simplification (which I am aware could mean some increase to some fares). There is a very long way to go, but reports like this for me add little additional value other than to pitch the 'Which' subscriptions.

There is no doubt that rail travel is not winning the PR war quick enough. Rail travel used to have chronic reputation for customer service a couple of generations ago and to be fair it has made great strides. But the received wisdom that rail is not a customer focussed industry remains.

So how do we break the vicious circle of customers not trusting "the railway scene" and those within the scene not trusting the wider public? Again, my experience living in mid wales perhaps offers a solution. The local community rail partnership is an important part of the rail travel ecosystem. The CrP can evangelise rail travel in general and engage in myth busting on local social media for instance.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,677
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
The Guardian opinion piece linked to is quite illuminating: bring actual human interaction back into the process. I trust the railways because I was fortunate to live near a small station with familiar ticket staff. I had faith that they would sell the correct ticket for my journey and also, whilst never tested, be in my corner if there was a dispute.

Whilst this intimate service might not be scalable in a business such as railways where most all people buy their tickets electronically, perhaps forum members have ideas? Of course a revision of the fare structure (in fact I would suggest a total reimagining of people's relationship with train travel) is the necessary long term solution.

Perhaps people would be willing to provide more of their own data to the ticketing agent (trainline, loco2, etc) if the data held on the system filters out inappropriate options for everyday transitions.

It is an interesting, and perhaps a valid point about the increased level of automation, certainly for some passengers at least. But people are getting more used to, indeed many now prefer automatic systems to human interaction (whether this is a good thing for society is of course another matter). For example you can now book a package holiday, arrange the transfer from the holiday, in-flight meals, seat selection & even check-in (which I'll be doing in the next couple of days for my next holiday, woohoo! (Sorry, got distracted there!)) without any human intervention whatsoever. In fact if you travel without checked luggage, the first human intervention you will have will be with the security staff at the airport! But all that said, having more staff available not only at stations & on trains, but over the telephones & help points employed by TOCs rather than contact centre providers would go a long way to offering a human face / voice.

As for automatic delay repay, properly done I would welcome this. However in order to give companies full confidence that it would be difficult to abuse, systems would need to be in place to make sure that claims were correctly made, not duplicated etc (no company simply opens up their financial systems without such). There's nothing too difficult in imagining how this would be done, for the standard paper, mobile & electronic tickets the ticket reference linked to a database of all the known delays, reason codes etc would make repayment where a card payment has been used easy enough, although M-Tickets would have to have been activated prior to the start of the delayed journey.

Abandon the blanket right for refund. Allow customers buying a ticket to add on travel insurance for a small surcharge when their journey is high stakes. Make this travel insurance easy to claim for more resources can be given to each claim because fewer people will be in a position to claim.

Its an interesting idea, but for the vast majority of journeys I really can't see people opting for it, even the riskier ones.

There is no doubt that rail travel is not winning the PR war quick enough. Rail travel used to have chronic reputation for customer service a couple of generations ago and to be fair it has made great strides. But the received wisdom that rail is not a customer focussed industry remains.

So how do we break the vicious circle of customers not trusting "the railway scene" and those within the scene not trusting the wider public? Again, my experience living in mid wales perhaps offers a solution. The local community rail partnership is an important part of the rail travel ecosystem. The CrP can evangelise rail travel in general and engage in myth busting on local social media for instance.

And these partnerships are exactly the sort of things than can start to improve both the customer experience & perceptions. We have one with Northern at my local station, there are regular engagements, open channels of communication & a little bit of goodwill on the part of the partnership group. We have had a number of small, but welcome improvements at Baildon & along with a proactive feedback loop members of the social media feed can see not only these changes occurring, but showing that they can in some small part have a say. It doesn't solve all of the wider problems, but does show that there are better ways of seeding change than bemoaning everything & anything on social media.
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
Abandon the blanket right for refund. Allow customers buying a ticket to add on travel insurance for a small surcharge when their journey is high stakes. Make this travel insurance easy to claim for more resources can be given to each claim because fewer people will be in a position to claim.

Why on earth should passengers have to pay more to get the same protections as they currently have?
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
The sentiment of the article is not really surprising given the most recent developments, but I think a distinction between being untrustworthy and simply being inept needs to be made. You may not be able to trust rail travel to get you to your destination at the correct time, but you aren't actively being scammed at every corner and railway byelaws aren't there solely to wring more money out of passengers.
I wouldn't mind betting that on a national basis (excluding the areas covered by GTR) bus travel is still considerably worse for punctuality than rail, road travel is far less predictable than rail even now. The mean delay for my return journey when I commute to London by rail is around 10-15 minutes, and that's with the TOC ranked pretty much bottom for customer satisfaction (TfL Rail) The mean delay for each return journey to our office in Surrey using the M25 is around 90 minutes.

I think the whole 'untrustworthy' argument has probably come about after the various franchise collapses that have happened over the past few years, rather than the actual customer experience.
 

squizzler

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2017
Messages
1,903
Location
Jersey, Channel Islands
Why on earth should passengers have to pay more to get the same protections as they currently have?

I would turn your question around and ask why passengers should pay into a compensation kitty that they might not be aware of even when eligible for refund?

I'd wager that the current delay compensation scheme is highly regressive in insofar as its claimants are almost certainly those middle class people who are used to playing the system to get what they want. Those who are less pushy, possibly those on lower incomes or other marginalised groups, will be subsidising the former group.

As regards customers losing trust in the railway, delay compensation represents what one famous BR chair might describe as yet another interface onto which the railway can fall flat. This opportunity for further upset is heightened here since, by definition, customers at that stage will already be disappointed with their experience.

When I brought a sleeper ticket with Nightjet (OBB), after I picked my departure and onboard accommodation I was offered travel insurance as a bolt on extra. I seem to recall it was underwritten by Zurich and was not an especially high amount. I understand this also common practice with airlines. Let train operators concentrate on running trains and insurance firms on running compensation for those who have identified a requirement for additional security on their journey. As for me, I didn't bother buying insurance!
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
I would turn your question around and ask why passengers should pay into a compensation kitty that they might not be aware of even when eligible for refund?

Well they are going to pay into it anyway. It isn't like removing delay repay and the like will lead to lower ticket prices and lower ticket price increases in years to come!
 

underbank

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2013
Messages
1,486
Location
North West England
Let train operators concentrate on running trains and insurance firms on running compensation

So what incentive would there be for TOCs to bother trying to run trains on time if they knew someone else would pick up the consequences?

Any service provider has to be liable/responsible for their failings, whether it is a meal, hair-do, hotel, solicitor, or whatever. It's the financial consequences of getting it wrong which is a driver in most businesses to try to get it right! If there are no consequences, then punctuality etc will just get even worse.
 

squizzler

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2017
Messages
1,903
Location
Jersey, Channel Islands
So what incentive would there be for TOCs to bother trying to run trains on time if they knew someone else would pick up the consequences?

Any service provider has to be liable/responsible for their failings, whether it is a meal, hair-do, hotel, solicitor, or whatever. It's the financial consequences of getting it wrong which is a driver in most businesses to try to get it right! If there are no consequences, then punctuality etc will just get even worse.
The same incentive as with any other business: people might go elsewhere, go without, or complain to others. Rail operators are working hard to grow their customer base just like any other business (even more so - many franchises are committed to pay increasing premiums as their term progresses so if they don't grow they die) and upsetting all the customers isn't going to help them do that.

Motorists also pay a separate insurance underwriter to "pick up their consequences", but generally try to avoid crashing anyway!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top