Which nrm locomotive would you like to see return to steam

[TukayAway]

That would be brilliant.
However. (and forgive me if I'm being daft here) Would that particular locomotive require the assosiated front end stuff that other mainline diesels require? e.g. Sealed beam headlight, and yellow panels. Which for me would ruin the asthetic.

I suppose the headlight could be got round by putting it in the place that the designer intended.

We've moved on from yellow warning panels. Put in a suitable LED light in the headlamp and it could be done. Just the issue of finding some engines to put inside it, re-wire and re-build the whole damn thing. Even after a big lottery win and a big night out, I'd still think it a bad investment.

My vote would be for the Midland Railway compound.

 

[alexl92]

Any which will offer a financial return to the NRM to continue their work. That wont be a unit, and electric or even a diesel. I say Mallard.

The NRM’s position on Mallard is that it’s just too valuable as a star attraction within the museum. They reckon the number of people who come to see it as a static exhibit outweighs any money it would make operating on the mainline.

Given that times, attitudes and boards of directors can change, I’d say realistically don’t expect Mallard to be overhauled until Scotsman is out of ticket and ready to take 4468’s place at the head of the dynamometer car for a few years.

My choice to steam again? C1/33001, the ugly but brilliant SR Q1!

 

[Stuart67]

For me it has got to be Mallard.

 

[gazthomas]

As others have said, DELTIC followed by D200

 

[Alan2603]

Just because I think it would be a fantastic feat of engineering (if very complex, if indeed possible), I would opt for 35029 Ellerman Lines:

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/35029-ellerman-lines/

It would be an economic basket case for sure, but if we can put men on the moon............

Alan

 

[UP13]

V2 Green Arrow.

If Mallard was the only remaining A4 then maybe. I think it's too important to risk. Too expensive when we have Bittern and Sir Nigel Gresley. Most people if they saw it go past would think they're Mallard anyway. Then again a lot of people see any green steam engine and say they saw Flying Scotsman...

 

[Steam loco]

It's a shame Ellermen lines is sectioned would be great if she could be rebuilt

 

[UP13]

It's a shame Ellermen lines is sectioned would be great if she could be rebuilt

Shame yes but there are other Merchant Navy locomotives. The museum is to educate and there was always going to be a dissected locomotive.

 

[Mag_seven]

Its not quite steam but, 87001 if no one has already said.

Seconded.

 

[Steam loco]

Shame yes but there are other Merchant Navy locomotives. The museum is to educate and there was always going to be a dissected locomotive.

Yes but she derves to be preserved like all the rest of the Barry locomotives

 

[UP13]

Yes but she derves to be preserved like all the rest of the Barry locomotives

Which engine would you disect then? You have to educate the public about how steam traction works. The inside of a real locomotive is far more powerful than a diagram.

The NRM needs to be more than a trainset...

 

[trebor79]

Aren't there fairly major issues with Mallard's firebox/boiler which reduce the likelihood of any return to steam? I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was patched up to allow for the few 50 year celebration railtours.

 

[trebor79]

Ps I would also like to see Butler Henderson or DELTIC running.

 

[Flying Phil]

Shame yes but there are other Merchant Navy locomotives. The museum is to educate and there was always going to be a dissected locomotive.

I agree with this - there are another 10, virtually complete, MN Pacifics and several are still a long way from steaming.

 

[Bedpan]

I know that it’s not authentic, but could preserved 3rd rail stock run on the Met occasionally if TfL permitted it?

I would have thought so, on the basis that there are places where District Line and BR (and what has evolved from BR - I'm not sure how else to describe them) trains share the same tracks and draw the same current, notably through Gunnersbury and also from Wimbledon to East Putney.

 

[A0wen]

I would have thought so, on the basis that there are places where District Line and BR (and what has evolved from BR - I'm not sure how else to describe them) trains share the same tracks and draw the same current, notably through Gunnersbury and also from Wimbledon to East Putney.

Isn't there something different about those sections in the way they are earthed though which doesn't apply to whole of the LUL network? Due to differences between 3rd and 4th rail systems? I'm sure I read somewhere that a 313 got sent the 'wrong' way at Gunnersbury and ground to a halt......

 

[DarloRich]

As i said - we need to chose a locomotive that will earn money and attract normals. No normals care about Butler Henderson or 87001 ( train spotters have notoriously short arms when it comes to cash!) or a unit or a diesel ( except perhaps D200 as the 40's seem to have a hardcore following of mega wibblers)

The only marginally sensible ideas are Duchess Of Hamilton or Green Arrow. Big, powerful steam locos able to run at a decent speed on the mainline are the only ones that are worth looking at. That is reality.

If we are talking wibble then I go for the Stirling Single. Looks fantastic and very steam punkish

 

[Bedpan]

Isn't there something different about those sections in the way they are earthed though which doesn't apply to whole of the LUL network? Due to differences between 3rd and 4th rail systems? I'm sure I read somewhere that a 313 got sent the 'wrong' way at Gunnersbury and ground to a halt......

Well it could be that modern traction won't work on the LUL network, but I think that the older units are okay. I know that there is a voltage difference (LUL being 630 and the old SR being nominally 750 (although I'm not sure that it was/is everywhere), and the fact that the return on the SR units was through the running lines rather than the fourth rail. Come to think of it though, you might be right , as I'm now wondering whether there would have to be a cable out from the running lines to complete the circuit. I never did understand how the circuit was completed for the third rail system.

 

[Flying Phil]

Whilst Darlo and I have mentioned the Stirling Single I would dispute the "Wibble" factor as I am sure the Single would be an attractive visitor to many preserved lines and, if charged at say £1000 per week hire charges plus cost, transport and running, I'm sure there is a good economic case for returning it to steam. The overhaul cost would be much smaller than for a larger locomotive. Two pics from the NRM of my candidates.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Isn't there something different about those sections in the way they are earthed though which doesn't apply to whole of the LUL network? Due to differences between 3rd and 4th rail systems? I'm sure I read somewhere that a 313 got sent the 'wrong' way at Gunnersbury and ground to a halt......

Well it could be that modern traction won't work on the LUL network, but I think that the older units are okay. I know that there is a voltage difference (LUL being 630 and the old SR being nominally 750 (although I'm not sure that it was/is everywhere), and the fact that the return on the SR units was through the running lines rather than the fourth rail. Come to think of it though, you might be right , as I'm now wondering whether there would have to be a cable out from the running lines to complete the circuit. I never did understand how the circuit was completed for the third rail system.

Yes, there are different feeding and earthing arrangements on the shared sections between East Putney and Wimbledon and Gunnersbury and Richmond. Elsewhere on LU 630V DC* is fed 'across' the positive and negative rails - roughly +420 and -210 - whilst on the NR sections the full 630V** is fed to the positive rail only. The negative rail is electrically bonded to the running rails at 0V, and of course things like track circuits are suitably immunised to deal with this.

Running third-rail stock on the solely-LUL sections is a complete non-starter - you're either going to have to carry out major surgery to the train (to introduce negative shoe gear and remove the returns via the wheels) or completely start again on the feeding and earthing arrangements.

*As the traction voltage is increased to 750V DC as part of various upgrade works the voltage differential is changing to +500 and -250. With regenerative braking the traction voltage can spike as high as 890V DC - this is causing problems already for older stock and there are some areas (e.g. Rayners Lane to Uxbridge) that cannot be increased whilst legacy stock remains.

**NR sections have, in fact, always been fed at 750V DC with the legacy LU stock able to cope with it - they key point to get across is that there is no differential split.

 

[Spartacus]

Whilst Darlo and I have mentioned the Stirling Single I would dispute the "Wibble" factor as I am sure the Single would be an attractive visitor to many preserved lines and, if charged at say £1000 per week hire charges plus cost, transport and running, I'm sure there is a good economic case for returning it to steam. The overhaul cost would be much smaller than for a larger locomotive.

It'd be great to see it, but for some preserved lines it would probably be quite expensive to operate as it would probably need to doublehead. You could bring in the increasingly popular 'Flying Scotsman' policy of everyone having to book ahead at premium prices and have a shorter train, but I can't see all that many willing to pay it.

 

[Robin Edwards]

Am I allowed to make a pitch for either of the 4-4-0s in Scotland? - Glen Douglas and/or Gordon Highlander would be great to see stretching their legs.
Otherwise - Green Arrow please.

 

[Steam loco]

Aren't there fairly major issues with Mallard's firebox/boiler which reduce the likelihood of any return to steam? I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was patched up to allow for the few 50 year celebration railtours.

I believe mallards boiler has a whole in it the nrm bodged the overhaul in the 1980s

 

[DarloRich]

Whilst Darlo and I have mentioned the Stirling Single I would dispute the "Wibble" factor as I am sure the Single would be an attractive visitor to many preserved lines and, if charged at say £1000 per week hire charges plus cost, transport and running, I'm sure there is a good economic case for returning it to steam. The overhaul cost would be much smaller than for a larger locomotive. Two pics from the NRM of my candidates.

so that should only take about 300 years to pay off the overhaul costs! It simply isnt going to attract normals in enough numbers to make it pay.

 

[A0wen]

As i said - we need to chose a locomotive that will earn money and attract normals. No normals care about Butler Henderson or 87001 ( train spotters have notoriously short arms when it comes to cash!) or a unit or a diesel ( except perhaps D200 as the 40's seem to have a hardcore following of mega wibblers)

The only marginally sensible ideas are Duchess Of Hamilton or Green Arrow. Big, powerful steam locos able to run at a decent speed on the mainline are the only ones that are worth looking at. That is reality.

If we are talking wibble then I go for the Stirling Single. Looks fantastic and very steam punkish

I don't think the Stirling is 'wibble' - there are very few 'early' standard gauge steam locos in use - one of the Furness Railway's springs to mind the Stirling would be a good addition to that.

Duchess of Hamilton is just another Duchess - there's already a few of those about and Green Arrow's been in steam for most of its preserved life.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't think the Stirling is 'wibble' - there are very few 'early' standard gauge steam locos in use - one of the Furness Railway's springs to mind the Stirling would be a good addition to that.

I am very happy to agree that it is an important locomotive and one involved in the East Coast Story the NRM have built up within the collection. However, what we as train fans might like to see and what will bring in enough money to help support the NRM are two different things.

PS I would love to have a ride behind it - it looks like a fantastic loco

Duchess of Hamilton is just another Duchess - there's already a few of those about and Green Arrow's been in steam for most of its preserved life.

Again - that doesn't matter to norms. Duchess of Hamilton is a big, powerful, old, stream loco that looks like a steam loco should. In streamline guise it is a "unique" loco. if you are a normal and heading of for the day out on a Pullman style train for Bill or Doris birthday all you want to see is a steam loco that looks the part. The type doesn't matter. However in order to get a path for your train you need to be able to travel at a certain speed. The Stirling Single wont do that.

If the NRM is going to overhaul something, suing our money after-all, it has it pay its way. I know i am being all rational and sensible but that is the real world!

 

[A0wen]

so that should only take about 300 years to pay off the overhaul costs! It simply isnt going to attract normals in enough numbers to make it pay.

I assume you're being facetious with 300 years, given Flying Scotsman's overhaul only cost £ 4.5m ? And that was to bring it up to full mainline standards. I don't think you'd ever justify making the Stirling mainline standard - but it would be ideal for some of the preserved lines - GCR or NVR geographically correct, but the NNR, Bluebell or Swanage would all look good with it.

 

[DarloRich]

Flying Scotsman's overhaul only cost £ 4.5m ?

Money the NRM didn't really have and cant afford to spend again! I am sure FS will turn a profit in due course. I am not sure we can say that for other locos.

 

[Skymonster]

If you want to appeal to railway enthusiasts there are quite a few locos in the NRM collection that would appeal if returned to steam. However, if you are looking to pull in the general public then I would suggest there are six that stand out beyond the others - forget the streamlined Dutchess as it won't mean much to the man in the street. If you extend the idea to all locos, the only other one that the average non-enthusiast would be likely to immediately appeal to is the Bullet Train.

Anyway, back to steam and I'd suggest the most compelling to a wide audience would: Puffing Billy, Locomotion, Rocket, Flying Scotsman, Mallard and Evening Star.

Clearly two or three of those are unlikely to ever steam again, one is already in steam. The one I'd most like to see back (from the entire collection) would unquestionably be 92220.

 

[markindurham]

I believe mallards boiler has a whole in it the nrm bodged the overhaul in the 1980s

No, it wasn't 'bodged' - indeed, that is a massive slur on the integrity of those who were involved; you might want to reconsider that statement.

Mallard's boiler is very fragile; it was life-expired at withdrawal in 1962. (One reason why she was withdrawn then, yet other A4s lasted until 1966). The restoration work in 1986 was the bare minimum required to allow her to operate during the 50th Anniversary celebrations, and her subsequent operation was very strictly controlled, including a finite number of permitted steamings before being taken out of service again. In fact, under modern boiler regulations, there is no way that we would see such a pragmatic course of action taken today.

Effectively she requires a great deal of metal renewal before she could run again, and for what? Even though we will lose Number 9 next year, Gresley is soon to return to main line use, and Bittern will follow at some point too, so we will still be able to witness A4 action on the main line.