Which staff member was correct?

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by mazza887, 6 Feb 2018.

  1. mazza887

    mazza887 Member

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    Hello, yesterday I got an off-peak day return from Chelford Cheshire to Manchester Piccadilly with a young persons railcard Upon returning at Manchester I went to the desk and asked for my return from Manchester to Chelford be upgraded to go to Crewe instead. I paid £1 something and got the new ticket to go with my current ticket. I then got a train to Crewe that did not call at Chelford (I was not advised whether or not I needed to?) anyway no issues.

    Then today I ended up doing the same thing (I didn’t think I was going to need to but I did due to my partner). Again I went to the desk. This time the lady said I would be buying a ticket from Chelford to Crewe and would need to get on a train that stops in Chelford. I said I wanted to get a faster train so that wouldn’t work so I ended up buying an £8 something ticket from Manchester to Crewe with a young persons railcard.

    Please can you advise which day I paid correctly and got the correct ticket.
    Thanks
     
  2. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Blimey. Can of worms if you ask on here.

    To answer your question, the following need to be determined for a start:
    (1) Is this a case of over-riding beyond the destination, or origin?
    (2) Does an over-distance excess fare mean you won't have to travel through the station excessed from?

    I don't think we have ever had real consensus on this forum especially regarding (2).

    My opinion is that neither are correct. The first member of staff performed the excess fare calculation incorrectly. With a Railcard the excess fare is either 60p, 70p or £2.25 so your quoted fare is obviously incorrect, officially speaking. I suspect that you are charged £1.15 or thereabouts under the old mechanism(?).

    I am of the opinion that you do not need to travel through the station excessed from in these cases, as the excess fare "converts" one fare to another (the one excessed to) as defined by the TSA, so the second member of staff is also incorrect imo.
     
  3. MattK

    MattK Member

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    £1.10 is the excess without the railcard applied (using Virgin Trains Only). As it's over-riding on the return journey I'd have said it would be 60p, which would allow you to get the Virgin trains. Don't see that there's any need for the train to call at the origin station on return, as it's not a break of journey
     
  4. mazza887

    mazza887 Member

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    I’ve asked Virgin on Twitter (they were the desk I went to) and they said I would need to buy a new single from Manchester - Crewe or buy a single from Chelford to Crewe and get a train that stops at Chelford.
     
    Last edited: 6 Feb 2018
  5. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    Try to distinguish between:
    (a) are they required to sell you such a ticket if you ask?
    (b) having sold such a ticket, are there any additional restrictions on how you may use it?

    My answers would be 'no' to both (but others will have different opinions). They don't have to sell you (indeed shouldn't sell you) the excess (assuming the place you bought your original ticket could have sold you the correct ticket for the complete journey), but if they do sell you it, you don't have to take a train that stops or passes through the original station.
     
  6. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    That's wrong. For over-distance excess the whole difference is charged. If the OP wants to do this journey from the outset they would be better off buying a Crewe to Manchester return ticket and starting short.
     
  7. MattK

    MattK Member

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    The OP stated he wasn't aware he would be doing this addition to his journey when he started.
     
  8. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    The OP stated he wasn't aware on the second occasion.
     
  9. scrapy

    scrapy Member

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    Technically (although I don't understand why) an overdistance excess is only for travelling beyond the destination on the ticket (in this case Manchester)and not the origin (Chelford). Star mobile does not allow the issue of overdistance excesses beyond the origin so if the OP was on Northern, ATW or Crosscountry they wouldn' have been able to get an excess. So i think the correct ticket would have been a Single from the last station the OPs train stopped at before Chelford (probably Wilmslow).
     
  10. Smethwickian

    Smethwickian Member

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    Errr, Smethwick!
    You say 'Virgin Trains Only'? If a fare is TOC-specific I always understood it couldn't be exccessed to an Any Permitted - is the opposite permissible in reverse?
     
  11. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    My understanding is that you can't excess away a TOC-specific restriction but in this case you are okay since you started with an Any Permitted ticket which would have been valid on that train anyway.
     
  12. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    In theory, TOC restriction cannot be excessed away. They can be excessed to if the original ticket was used (if at all) in line with the restriction.
     
  13. Muzer

    Muzer Established Member

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    Are passengers entitled to purchase an overdistance excess from a ticket office, or are these entirely discretionary?
     
  14. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    They are entitled to buy them, but there is an argument that you can only overdistance from the original (outward) destination and not from the origin. Another matter (off-topic here) that provokes discussion is whether the journey must then pass through the original destination.For example, if a London to Banbury ticket is excessed to Birmingham would the new journey then be permitted to use the WCML.
     
    Last edited: 9 Feb 2018
  15. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    As posted above, STAR Mobile (and so presumably also the ticket office Star system too) will not let you excess beyond the origin in either direction. So in the case of the OP the origin of Chelford cannot be changed, whichever is the direction of travel, if using Star.
     
  16. [.n]

    [.n] Member

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    In my experience its incredibly hard to buy an over distance excess from a ticket office or guard, I tried the other day whilst on my journey (ticket office where I first boarded, ticket office at interchange, guard on train 2, and then guard on train 3)
     
  17. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The fare did not require the train to call anywhere.

    You are lucky you found a booking clerk who was able to issue it, though.

    What train did you get? In a worst case scenario, if the staff were unable to issue the excess, I would expect the train to call at Wilmslow, so a Wilmslow to Crewe Single would suffice.
    The first occasion was correct in my opinion. The second occasion was incorrect, but not all staff & machines can issue the excess, and there is no contractual entitlement in the NRCoT for the excess to be issued. But you should not have paid more than £5.30, which is the price of either an ATW Only or Virgin WestCoast Only single. Whose idea was it to purchase a ticket all the way from Manchester?

    It does not need to.

    The T&Cs applicable to the fare you excess to, are those which apply:-
    The rail industry can give the customer more favourable terms than those stipulated in the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement, but they cannot give less favourable terms.
    Many people find it difficult to purchase these, but you tend to have more chance with a Guard than at a ticket office.
    Virgin Trains twitter are not knowledgeable regarding fares matters. It is ludicrous to say you'd need a new ticket all the way from Manchester to Crewe. But such an answer is in line with my expectations of them; I am not at all surprised.
     
  18. mazza887

    mazza887 Member

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    Thanks for your message. It is disappointing to read the twitter people are giving advice that may not always be correct. Can you advise me as to what I should say to the ticket office person in the future should I ever need to do this again?

    Thanks
     
  19. sarahj

    sarahj Established Member

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    They were easy to do on the advantix system, they are a pain in the bum on the new system. Even trying to do first class upgrades on a gatex yesterday was a pain and came up with some odd amounts to pay.
    Mind before hand, I was only happy to do overdistance excess before the end point of the original ticket. After that it was a single fare only.
     
  20. ANorthernGuard

    ANorthernGuard Established Member

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    They should have just excessed over distance using any permitted. TOC Specific cannot be excessed (EG Virgin Only up to Any Permitted) That would be a new ticket.
     
  21. [.n]

    [.n] Member

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    Even if as in my scenario the other day, I'd been trying all journey to change my ticket? Should have mentioned I find change of route excess equally tricky to do, and I do this a lot, never really found the best way to do this!
     

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