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Which T&Cs take precedence on PTE products?

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jkdd77

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A person buying a Saveaway *has* bought the contractual right to travel, as evidenced by a ticket, on scheduled services within the National Rail network; namely, those services within the specified area, and this ticket is plainly a train ticket (that is to say, evidence of a contract for travel by rail) within the meaning of railway byelaws, the NRCoC, the franchise agreements, and the TSA. If it is valid on trains, then it is a train ticket, regardless of the fact that it may also be a ticket for other methods of transport as well, and subject to separate conditions relating to those alternative methods of transport.

Accordingly, the contract for travel by rail is with those TOCs operating services within the defined zones (having regard to NRCoC Condition 19), and the NRCoC forms part of that contract for travel.

Furthermore, the Merseyrail franchise holder (technically licence holder), Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Limited, is the very same company which operates Merseytravel, and is accordingly bound by the TSA, which states: http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/RSPDocuments/TSA V9_4 - Main Agreement (Volume 1).pdf:
8-12 CONDITIONS AND BYE-LAWS
(1) Prohibition on restricting the Purchaser's rights
An Operator must not publish any conditions which apply to the Purchaser of a Fare, Reservation or an Upgrade, and must not pass any bye-laws or operate any procedures, which restrict or purport to restrict the rights that the Purchaser would otherwise have under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or the CIV Rules.
(2) Exception
Sub-Clause (1) above does not apply to the extent that this is expressly permitted by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or, as the case may be, the CIV Rules.

The Merseyrail website states:
http://www.merseyrail.org/about-merseyrail/revenue-protection-policy.aspx
Merseyrail complies with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage 2012
and
National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Section 1(a) Sub-section 1(b): Tickets remain the property of the relevant train company each is issued subject to the applicable byelaws
without limitation as to ticket type, and I have no doubt that, if a passenger travelling on a Saveaway were to misplace their ticket or luggage, Merseyrail would have no hesitation in enforcing Conditions 2 and 4 of the NRCoC for tickets, or 50, 55, 56 and 57 for luggage, illustrating that they consider that travel is subject to the NRCoC.

Finally, a Saveaway can be issued on RSP orange stock, and, if so, the words "Issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage" will be printed on the reverse of the ticket, which would seem pretty conclusive.
 
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Camden

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A limited company is a separate entity, and a concession holder is not the same as a PTE (even if they do control the concession).

While someone buying a train ticket for travel will be bound by NRCoC, I believe it is arguable that a Saveaway is not a "train ticket" (as defined) at all (but merely affords passage on rail services in the PTE area, subject to negotiated access by said PTE, along with access to other forms of transport) and as such it is possible a passenger using a Saveaway may have no rights under the NRCoC and may have no agreement in place under it. It's not a "plus bus" ticket, it's a Saveaway. A Saveaway isn't even a ticket (even if it sometimes looks like one) it's a multi-modal pass.

I also don't believe there is any contractual right of rail travel with a Saveaway: With a rail ticket if your service is cancelled you get your money back according to all sorts of rules. Even if all trains were cancelled throughout the entire area, you still wouldn't get your money back from a Saveaway, they'd just tell you to use your pass for what it was meant for and get on the bus.

If it is said that someone can, like it or not, argue the toss over whether they can get peak hour travel with a Saveaway through nuanced technicality argument, it also has to be accepted that other technical nuances can also be argued out.
 
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sheff1

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But you must surely take the point that a travelcard sensibly needs one rule to cover all modes to operate normally...

Why ?

Other tickets have different rules regarding valid times for different modes of transport - TfGM and Derbyshire Wayfarers for starters.
 

talltim

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The (SY) Travelmaster T&Cs include:
f) Conditions of Carriage

i) Passengers using TravelMaster Products are carried subject to English Law and PSV Regulations thereunder, local bye-laws and the Conditions of Carriage of the individual operator whose service is being used at the time and at any time.

ii) Rail passengers are carried subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage except that there is any conflict TravelMaster conditions take precedence.
http://www.sytravelmaster.com/conditions
 

Bletchleyite

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You could argue that the restriction is worded as it is out of pragmatism - it avoids anyone's travel *becoming* invalid during the journey, and (in most cases) meaning they will be stopped before boarding when it has, particularly taking into account that station staff used to check tickets at even the smallest Merseyrail station in BR days.
 

Camden

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It is what it is and the restriction will remain. Millions of people will continue to use the Saveaway quite happily, with its single common sense and easy to understand multi-modal restriction in place.

Anyone who tries to subvert the restriction will be told "no", and should anyone wish to try and challenge that I am confident they will simply be wasting their time and energy. Is anyone really going to try and take it to a court of law?? Has our once great and pragmatic country really been reduced to that? If I ever read about it happening then I would seriously worry about what we have become, but it is notable that the pass has been available since the 70's without a court case yet. 7 pages of hypothetical irrelevance.

As I said before, I feel there are many better candidate situations for going all red-in-the-face about where the NRCoCs have been overridden, rather than moaning about a good value travelcard with a sensible restriction.
 
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jkdd77

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The (SY) Travelmaster T&Cs include:
f) Conditions of Carriage

i) Passengers using TravelMaster Products are carried subject to English Law and PSV Regulations thereunder, local bye-laws and the Conditions of Carriage of the individual operator whose service is being used at the time and at any time.

ii) Rail passengers are carried subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage except that there is any conflict TravelMaster conditions take precedence.
http://www.sytravelmaster.com/conditions

The franchise agreements, TSA and NRCoC (and the NRE website) all state that tickets are issued subject both to the NRCoC and to additional T & Cs associated with the ticket, save that, if there is any conflict, the NRCoC takes precedence.

Clearly, there is an irreconcilable contradiction, at least in the case of Travelmaster tickets. I believe that, if a dispute over a SY Travelmaster, or Saveaway, went to court, the judge or magistrate would apply the principle of contra proferentem, taking account of public policy issues, and hence hold that the NRCoC indeed takes precedence, unless the conflicting PTE conditions were more favorable to the passenger.
 
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transmanche

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Furthermore, the Merseyrail franchise holder (technically licence holder), Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Limited, is the very same company which operates Merseytravel
What?


The franchise agreements, TSA and NRCoC (and the NRE website) all state that tickets are issued subject both to the NRCoC and to additional T & Cs associated with the ticket, save that, if there is any conflict, the NRCoC takes precedence.
Notwithstaning that the franchise agreements and TSA do not form part of the contract between Merseytravel and the customer, where in the NRCoC does it says that its terms take precedence - all I see is a clear statement on the NRCoC which tells me that the other party's (i.e. Merseytravel's) conditions apply.
 

bb21

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It is what it is and the restriction will remain. Millions of people will continue to use the Saveaway quite happily, with its single common sense and easy to understand multi-modal restriction in place.

Anyone who tries to subvert the restriction will be told "no", and should anyone wish to try and challenge that I am confident they will simply be wasting their time and energy. Is anyone really going to try and take it to a court of law?? Has our once great and pragmatic country really been reduced to that? If I ever read about it happening then I would seriously worry about what we have become, but it is notable that the pass has been available since the 70's without a court case yet. 7 pages of hypothetical irrelevance.

Of course, if you say so. I'm sure you are right. :smile:

As I said before, I feel there are many better candidate situations for going all red-in-the-face about where the NRCoCs have been overridden, rather than moaning about a good value travelcard with a sensible restriction.

I don't think I have ever disagreed with you on that first point, but surely people are entitled to register a dispute where they feel one exists?

I'm gonna bow out of this now because I don't think anyone has anything new to say.
 

jkdd77

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Notwithstaning that the franchise agreements and TSA do not form part of the contract between Merseytravel and the customer, where in the NRCoC does it says that its terms take precedence - all I see is a clear statement on the NRCoC which tells me that the other party's (i.e. Merseytravel's) conditions apply.[/QUOTE]

The contract for travel by rail is with the TOC(s) whose trains the passenger is entitled to use; they are the 'other parties' to the contract in relation to rail, albeit that Merseytravel might be the party to travel in relation to other forms of travel.

The NRCoC states: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf
1. Each ticket is issued subject to:
(a) these Conditions

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx
When you buy a ticket to travel on the railway network you enter into an agreement with the Train Companies. That agreement gives you the right to make the journey, or journeys, between the stations or within the zones shown on the ticket you have bought. These National Rail Conditions of Carriage are also part of that agreement and they apply to all domestic (non-international) journeys by scheduled passenger train services of the Train Companies on the railway network of Great Britain.
These National Rail Conditions of Carriage set out your rights and any restrictions of those rights. The Train Companies may give you more extensive rights than those set out here; they may not give you less unless, in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets, a Condition specifically allows for this.
The above paragraphs used to form part of the NRCoC itself prior to May 2012, but the publication on the NRE website, supposedly the "definitive source of passenger information", suggests that, in the eyes of ATOC and the TOCs, they remain valid statements as to the contracts for travel entered into, and, in any case, a passenger ought to be able to reasonably rely on information published on the NRE site.

If additional terms and conditions could nullify rights expressly guaranteed by the NRCoC, then Condition 1(a) of the NRCoC is violated in that the ticket is no longer fully subject to the Conditions in the NRCoC, and there would be a contradiction, since the NRCoC forms an integral part of the contract for travel.

Furthermore, a contract ought not to be interpreted in such a way as to violate public policy. Interpreting the contract for travel in such a way as to allow TOCs to nullify the NRCoC by publishing conflicting conditions would leave them in violation of their franchise agreements, (and the TSA). as well as acting against the public interest by removing passenger rights and creating uncertainty, contrary to government policy that they should have such rights, and I doubt that such an interpretation would be preferred by a court, even more so given the general principle that contractual ambiguity is interpreted in the way least favourable to the drafter.
 
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TUC

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If it is valid on trains, then it is a train ticket, regardless of the fact that it may also be a ticket for other methods of transport as well

No, validity on trains does not of itself make it a rail ticket. Take the North East Explorer. It is valid on most buses in north east England but on rail it is valid only on the Newcastle-Sunderland line. It would be bizarre to say it is a rail ticket because of that single element of rail validity.

Furthermore, the Merseyrail franchise holder (technically licence holder), Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Limited, is the very same company which operates Merseytravel, and is accordingly bound by the TSA, which states: http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/RSPDocuments/TSA V9_4 - Main Agreement (Volume 1).pdf:

No, Merseyrail and Merseytravel are completely separate entities. Merseyrail is a TOC and a private company. Merseytravel is the trading name of the PTE. As it describes itself on its website ( http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/about-us/Pages/default.aspx), Merseytravel is 'the Executive body that provides professional, strategic and operational transport advice to the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority to enable it to make informed decisions. It is also the delivery arm, making transport happen'.
 

Bletchleyite

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No, Merseyrail and Merseytravel are completely separate entities. Merseyrail is a TOC and a private company.

It's also, confusingly, the trade name used by Merseytravel to describe their entire rail network including some bits operated by Northern (the "City Line"). The original Merseyrail Electrics used to use that name (until they were for a bit Arriva Trains Merseyside) and a different logo to make clear this difference, but it seems to have been blurred a bit with the 2002 Company.
 

cool110

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It's also, confusingly, the trade name used by Merseytravel to describe their entire rail network including some bits operated by Northern (the "City Line"). The original Merseyrail Electrics used to use that name (until they were for a bit Arriva Trains Merseyside) and a different logo to make clear this difference, but it seems to have been blurred a bit with the 2002 Company.

There is still a difference, but it's quite subtle. If it has a pair of lines in the background it's the TOC, if it's in a box it's the PTE.

A good example of the difference is on the cover of a timetable where the PTE logo is at the top and the TOC logos are at the bottom.
 
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jkdd77

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No, validity on trains does not of itself make it a rail ticket. Take the North East Explorer. It is valid on most buses in north east England but on rail it is valid only on the Newcastle-Sunderland line. It would be bizarre to say it is a rail ticket because of that single element of rail validity.

If it's valid on trains, then it is a rail ticket in relation to journeys made by rail, regardless of the fact it may also serve as a bus ticket (etc) in respect of other methods of transport. As a rail ticket, the Saveaway, and the North East Explorer, are valid on franchised services within the defined area, in the appropriate class (standard), and at the times permitted for rail travel, according to the NRCoC, the franchise agreements, the TSA, the NRE website, the Merseyrail website stating that travel is subject to the NRCoC, in the case of the Saveaway, the NRCoC itself, and even the ticket itself if issued on orange stock (Saveaway).

Some 'inter-modal' tickets are silent as to the T & Cs when travelling by rail, which would mean that, were they not subject to the NRCoC, the terms of the contract for travel by rail would be most unclear.

However, I sense that we will never persuade each other, and do not propose to continue the discussion any further.
 
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