Which TOCs are currently conducting in cab trainee driver training?

[theironroad]

The bubbles were set up due to Covid, not lockdown, and the rising numbers shouldn’t come in to it surely? Admittedly SWR’s bubbles are a bit less stringent than they can be, with just one PCR test being required to be administered by OH, and unless the member of staff is off for over a week, no further tests are required, just daily temp checks as far as I’m aware?

At GWR, we have/had one PCR test at OH, and then weekly self-administered tests, and temperature checks daily. I think since we have procedure in place as an industry, and as a nation, which we didn’t last March, training continuing is surely less of a risk now than it was then? Not to mention the mass-vaccine rollout.

I don't recall making any link between lockdown and bubbles. Falling passenger numbers and reduced timetables aside, the operational railway isn't really affected by lockdowns as day to day running carries on as normal.

The rising numbers are I understand being caused by the increased transmittable nature of the mutation (wasn't it cited by government as 70% more transmissible?)

Hasn't Whitty et al said that individuals should act as if they have the virus.

Putting two people in a small box for an extended period of time seems unjustifiable at this stage. Maybe if there was a 99% reliable instant (say less than 30mins) test that could be administered before every shift then certainly that would help, but that is far from where SWR are in their testing regime.

I realise it's hard for trainees and qualifieds who need to be in the cab, but with reduced timetables I don't think there is a desperate need right now to have anyone back at work who isn't actually doing a driving shift, at this moment they are not essential to keeping trains moving.

The TOCs are flexing the rules just as many other people are flexing the rules to suit what they personally want to do rather than what the government has instructed.


The vaccine hasn't been rolled out at a mass level yet. Some healthcare workers, care home residents and over 80s have had 1 jab, some 2. I'm not aware of people in the non healthcare workforce being called forward yet.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I don't recall making any link between lockdown and bubbles. Falling passenger numbers and reduced timetables aside, the operational railway isn't really affected by lockdowns as day to day running carries on as normal.

The rising numbers are I understand being caused by the increased transmittable nature of the mutation (wasn't it cited by government as 70% more transmissible?)

Hasn't Whitty et al said that individuals should act as if they have the virus.

Putting two people in a small box for an extended period of time seems unjustifiable at this stage. Maybe if there was a 99% reliable instant (say less than 30mins) test that could be administered before every shift then certainly that would help, but that is far from where SWR are in their testing regime.

I realise it's hard for trainees and qualifieds who need to be in the cab, but with reduced timetables I don't think there is a desperate need right now to have anyone back at work who isn't actually doing a driving shift, at this moment they are not essential to keeping trains moving.

The TOCs are flexing the rules just as many other people are flexing the rules to suit what they personally want to do rather than what the government has instructed.


The vaccine hasn't been rolled out at a mass level yet. Some healthcare workers, care home residents and over 80s have had 1 jab, some 2. I'm not aware of people in the non healthcare workforce being called forward yet.

It's easy to say all of that when it isn't your life, your career, your family's life and your finances on hold due to the training delay.

Thankfully GWR and a number of DIs do not share your view.

In any case, when this all ends, you need us trainees ready to step in to roles to enable full service resumption. Not thinking "oh we could do with 10 extra drivers now, let's bring back the trainees who've been off for 9/12/18+ months to start handling again so they can be ready 3 months late"

AND despite the increased transmissibility of this new strain, trainee driver Covid secure work bubbles haven't caused a rampant increase in cases. So using that as a further argument to leave us home is moot

 

[Stigy]

The vaccine hasn't been rolled out at a mass level yet. Some healthcare workers, care home residents and over 80s have had 1 jab, some 2. I'm not aware of people in the non healthcare workforce being called forward yet.

That wasn’t my point though. It’s been “promised” that nearly a quarter of the UK population will have received at least one vaccination by the end of February. That is a mass rollout, surely?

 

[theironroad]

It's easy to say all of that when it isn't your life, your career, your family's life and your finances on hold due to the training delay.

Thankfully GWR and a number of DIs do not share your view.

In any case, when this all ends, you need us trainees ready to step in to roles to enable full service resumption. Not thinking "oh we could do with 10 extra drivers now, let's bring back the trainees who've been off for 9/12/18+ months to start handling again so they can be ready 3 months late"

AND despite the increased transmissibility of this new strain, trainee driver Covid secure work bubbles haven't caused a rampant increase in cases. So using that as a further argument to leave us home is moot

No it's not easy to say and I realise the severe disruption this has caused to everyone in the grade, the railway and in the country.

However, the law in England is that no one should be leaving home except for a essential reason. Personally, right now , I don't believe that includes training outside not the home.

 

[tiptoptaff]

No it's not easy to say and I realise the severe disruption this has caused to everyone in the grade, the railway and in the country.

However, the law in England is that no one should be leaving home except for a essential reason. Personally, right now , I don't believe that includes training outside not the home.

The railway is an essential service. Continuing to train staff in their roles is essential to ongoing running of the railway. Thus it is essential we continue our training.

Your opinions, fortunately, don't matter in this regard.

 

[theironroad]

The railway is an essential service. Continuing to train staff in their roles is essential to ongoing running of the railway. Thus it is essential we continue our training.

Your opinions, fortunately, don't matter in this regard.

I'm not going to engage or react to personal attacks.

Good luck with your future.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I'm not going to engage or react to personal attacks.

Good luck with your future.

Not sure what you think was a personal attack. But your narrow minded view is the sort that's causing stress and anxiety to a lot of trainees across the country.

Proper "I'm alright Jack" attitude, under the cloak of "staying safe"

 

[Fokx]

I can tell you as a trainee starting there driver journey (after nearly a year of waiting at home) that we are going to be taught from home at TPE. Should be interesting!

You’ll be surprised at how much theory you’ll actually take in learning from home instead of travelling to the hub in person. I certainly was with my conductor rules/theory back in August

Won’t be long till you’re bubbled with an instructor and off to the simulator

 

[lammergeier]

I'm a bit surprised how many tocs are still allowing in cab training from this thread.

Why? Covid secure bubbles work.

The railway is an essential service. Continuing to train staff in their roles is essential to ongoing running of the railway. Thus it is essential we continue our training.

Your opinions, fortunately, don't matter in this regard.

I agree. Training must continue, within covid bubbles, for as long as possible. The railway and it's operators must be ready to play its part in getting the country moving again (literally and metaphorically) when the time comes. With so much outstanding road learning, traction training and basic handling for trainees, this is the time to do it.

 

[aar0]

Thameslink are.

GN are but you need to be in a bubble also limited class room training according to risk assessment of the room.

I'm surprised to hear this, a friend has been waiting for training to start with Southern since late 2019, and has been told they're not doing any training. You'd think, these three being the same company, they'd have the same policies.

 

[the sniper]

Not sure what you think was a personal attack. But your narrow minded view is the sort that's causing stress and anxiety to a lot of trainees across the country.

Proper "I'm alright Jack" attitude, under the cloak of "staying safe"

Equally many trainees are very comfortable with the situation. Evidently not you, but as you say, your opinions presumably don't matter either...

I hope that ASLEF locally consider pushing your employer to step you up to the full qualified pay rate if training were to be suspended again, as presumably you've gone past your anticipated pass out date but you're stuck on the training rate, which is causing you this stress? Are Sundays outside the week where you are and will you be able to claim them back on passing out?

 

[tiptoptaff]

Equally many trainees are very comfortable with the situation. Evidently not you, but as you say, your opinions presumably don't matter either...

I hope that ASLEF locally consider pushing your employer to step you up to the full qualified pay rate if training were to be suspended again, as presumably you've gone past your anticipated pass out date but you're stuck on the training rate, which is causing you this stress? Are Sundays outside the week where you are and will you be able to claim them back on passing out?

Indeed, to my employer, what I think of the situation matters not.

Unfortunately there's no appetite for pushing for any sort of pay rise until we're passed out. Some talk of backpay claims but nothing beyond what would be considered a "normal" delay. It sort of got soured by a group way behind us asking about it when training was suspended in March - they were only 6 weeks in to their rules at that point. Not been entertained since

 

[S-Car-Go]

The bubbles were set up due to Covid, not lockdown, and the rising numbers shouldn’t come in to it surely? Admittedly SWR’s bubbles are a bit less stringent than they can be, with just one PCR test being required to be administered by OH, and unless the member of staff is off for over a week, no further tests are required, just daily temp checks as far as I’m aware?

At GWR, we have/had one PCR test at OH, and then weekly self-administered tests, and temperature checks daily. I think since we have procedure in place as an industry, and as a nation, which we didn’t last March, training continuing is surely less of a risk now than it was then? Not to mention the mass-vaccine rollout.

We're the same at LNWR. Weekly home covid self-test kits for both DI and trainee in their bubbles. It is less of a risk now that the industry has trialled new ways of working in 2020, but there are still delays to training. DI or trainee could get an alert to self-isolate from the NHS app. And that puts both of them out of action for 8 days.

 

[Coach Carter]

No it's not easy to say and I realise the severe disruption this has caused to everyone in the grade, the railway and in the country.

However, the law in England is that no one should be leaving home except for a essential reason. Personally, right now , I don't believe that includes training outside not the home.

It also classes an essential reason as going to work if your job can’t be done from home. We can’t get our handling hours in from home, we also can’t cover shifts for currently qualified driver who can’t come in due to self isolating as we havnt qualified, we also won’t be able to fill the gaps in the link left by the drivers retiring that we were hired to replace.
Personally I should have qualified in May along with my 5 other fellow trainees, the group of 5 in front of us are also still not qualified and the group of six that were due to start in June are only just starting there rules. We were all brought in to replace leavers and expected retirements and that’s just for our depot. That’s 17 drivers that as it stands havnt/won’t be replaced in time when they go. Then there’s the extra people that may chosen to take retirement given the current situation.
I’m lucky that money/pay hasn’t been an issue as our TOC has looked after us well and honoured the pay increases for our originally expected qualifying dates.
I’m more concerned that my expected return time will mean I have been off for well over a year leaving me with considerable skill/knowledge fade.
To shorten down my long rambling, I feel that training needs to continue using those DI’s that are happy to do it or things my come to a grinding holt just when the country starts to recover and needs our services the most.

 

[craigybagel]

Training bubbles now suspended until further notice at TfW. Suspect they won't be the only ones making this decision.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Training bubbles now suspended until further notice at TfW. Suspect they won't be the only ones making this decision.

Likewise at GWR as of Saturday

 

[dk1]

Expecting it with my bubble at GA & we where only talking about that today. Weekday service reductions coming in from the 25th.

 

[DunfordBridge]

I don't recall making any link between lockdown and bubbles. Falling passenger numbers and reduced timetables aside, the operational railway isn't really affected by lockdowns as day to day running carries on as normal.

The rising numbers are I understand being caused by the increased transmittable nature of the mutation (wasn't it cited by government as 70% more transmissible?)

Hasn't Whitty et al said that individuals should act as if they have the virus.

Putting two people in a small box for an extended period of time seems unjustifiable at this stage. Maybe if there was a 99% reliable instant (say less than 30mins) test that could be administered before every shift then certainly that would help, but that is far from where SWR are in their testing regime.

I have been informed by a colleague that staff from Boots Pharmacy have been issued with self-testing kits which produce a result in 30 minutes. There are something like two dozen plus kits in a box but I do not know who the manufacturer is.

 

[ComUtoR]

I have been informed by a colleague that staff from Boots Pharmacy have been issued with self-testing kits which produce a result in 30 minutes. There are something like two dozen plus kits in a box but I do not know who the manufacturer is.

Some councils are offering symptom free testing. Mine has recomended a test every two weeks and is available to all. Other councils have various caveats.

 

[Stigy]

I have been informed by a colleague that staff from Boots Pharmacy have been issued with self-testing kits which produce a result in 30 minutes. There are something like two dozen plus kits in a box but I do not know who the manufacturer is.

Indeed. I have been using these myself for the Ambulance Service. They’re lateral flow tests, however the issue with these kits is their accuracy isn’t anywhere near an high as the PCR test (as low as 50% I’m led to believe). If I test positive with one of these, I have to isolate and request a full PCR test which will determine whether or not I have Covid.

Our depot were trialling a similar test kit alongside the PCR tests we had to do as Trainees, however I never took part as I was nearing passout so it wouldn’t have been of benefit since I’ve not stopped doing the tests.

 

[Red Devil]

My TOC,still carrying on with training and route learning

 

[John Bishop]

My TOC,still carrying on with training and route learning

Which is??

 

[Val3ntine]

Arriva rail london (london overground) still carrying on with bubbles/2 in cab training I believe

 

[dk1]

Deleted due to error.

 

[KT530]

As a trainee, and I appreciate my motives are different to a DIs, I'm still unsure about this right to refuse, but keep the top-up - especially when the willing DIs got nothing for their help. Comes across as many happy to take the money but leave us shafted. They'll still moan and call us lazy when we remember this down the line and don't do them favours.

There are of course some with genuine reasons for not doing it, and I respect those that chucked it in, with resulting loss of top-up, more than those who just treated it as free money.

It’s also no coincidence that most of those DIs that have volunteered to help you guys out are ones on more recent rolling fixed term contracts, which is what GWR have implemented for the last 3 yrs - those on permanent contracts less so, but they’re still happy to take the money for not doing the job.

Good luck with your training.

PS, most GWR handling suspended from midnight tonight pending a review in 4 weeks’ time.

 

[Red Devil]

Which is??

Northern

 

[DunfordBridge]

Indeed. I have been using these myself for the Ambulance Service. They’re lateral flow tests, however the issue with these kits is their accuracy isn’t anywhere near an high as the PCR test (as low as 50% I’m led to believe). If I test positive with one of these, I have to isolate and request a full PCR test which will determine whether or not I have Covid.

Our depot were trialling a similar test kit alongside the PCR tests we had to do as Trainees, however I never took part as I was nearing passout so it wouldn’t have been of benefit since I’ve not stopped doing the tests.

So do you actually volunteer with the Ambulance Service? You seem to know more about testing than me. I did not know that these lateral flow tests were less reliable but hopefully, they are producing more false positives rather than false negatives where the latter give a wrong indication of a positive result that otherwise goes undetected.

One thing I do know is that there seems to be a more of a blame culture now with various people blaming government, each other, etc, but as @ComUtoR says, certain local councils are being more proactive in tackling Covid 19 amongst asymptomatic people. These councils clearly recognise that the cost of such testing is lower than the cost of allowing Covid to go rife in the community.

 

[tiptoptaff]

So do you actually volunteer with the Ambulance Service? .

I know @Stigy personally, and it would be a surprise to me if he does, because he's never mentioned it

 

[Chingy]

I take it this time around it's down to individual TOC's/FOC's as to whether they continue train handling or not?

Nothing official has been said from any relevant bodies, ie Aslef/RICF etc?

But surprised that it's a mix of some TOC's continuing and some TOC's suspending.

 

[DunfordBridge]

I know @Stigy personally, and it would be a surprise to me if he does, because he's never mentioned it

Interesting, I knew that Stigy moved from SWR to GWR so I had him down as working at either Fratton or Reading. With a name like @tiptoptaff , I imagined you worked out of Cardiff, I used to study there many years ago, digressing somewhat.