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Which TOCs will require derogations to continue running trains from 2020?

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SC43090

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Just how many train operating companies might require derogations to continue operating their train services from 01/01/20, as some of the current stock will not have been modified in time?
  • Northern
  • EMT or ever what it will be called
  • Transport for Wales
  • Scotrail
  • GWR
  • Possibly LNER
  • Possibly XC
Are there any others?
 
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anamyd

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Sorry if in the wrong place....

But as EMT HSTs & Transport for Wales pacer's get a mention in this thread.... Just how many other train operating companies might be wanting Degrogations to continue operating there train services from 01/01/20, as some of the current stock will not have been modified in time..... Here is what i think....

Northern
EMT or ever what it will be called
Transport for Wales
Scotrail
GWR
Possibly LNER
Possibly XC
Are there any others????

SC 43090
East Midlands Railway (EMR)
 

Parallel

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GWR must be near the end now, all their 150s have been done, all of their 158s except one have been (or are being) done, the 166s have been done. So it’s 1 x 158, several 2+4 castle sets and maybe some 165s left? And the 143s but they are expected to leave by the end of the year.
 

CyrusWuff

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Most TOCs will likely require some derogations for minor non-compliance (e.g. position of passenger door controls, seat cushion heights, seat handhold heights, etc) and things they have no control over (e.g. train to platform height/gaps).

Chiltern would definitely need a derogation to continue using the slam door Mk3 set, as the cost of undertaking PRM mods would be prohibitively expensive given the franchise is due to end in December 2021.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Just how many train operating companies might require derogations to continue operating their train services from 01/01/20, as some of the current stock will not have been modified in time?
  • Northern
  • EMT or ever what it will be called
  • Transport for Wales
  • Scotrail
  • GWR
  • Possibly LNER
  • Possibly XC
Are there any others?

Greater Anglia unlikely to have all its new stock in by then.
 

robreed90001

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apologies if this is the wrong thread for this.

GA and some of their MK3 Class 90 hauled sets?. new trains have started arriving but looks like most of the MK3s will still be needed heading into the new year.
 

HamworthyGoods

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GWR must be near the end now, all their 150s have been done, all of their 158s except one have been (or are being) done, the 166s have been done. So it’s 1 x 158, several 2+4 castle sets and maybe some 165s left? And the 143s but they are expected to leave by the end of the year.

Suspect it will be if the mini HST plug door conversions take longer to complete, running mini slam door sets isn’t likely to go down well if more compliant (but not totally compliant) powered doors units are available.
 
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GWR must be near the end now, all their 150s have been done, all of their 158s except one have been (or are being) done, the 166s have been done. So it’s 1 x 158, several 2+4 castle sets and maybe some 165s left? And the 143s but they are expected to leave by the end of the year.
I believe all the 165s are done now as well, although they along with several 166s still retain FGW interiors.
 
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It’s also very much looking like that some pacers will continue with Northern into next year as I believe they’ve been having teething problems with the 195s and 331s.
 
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Southeastern (two-coach 465s without gangways).
Ah yes, the 466s. I'm curious to see how they address this issue on the Bromley North and Sheerness shuttle lines. No doubt they won't want to waste 4-coach 465s on either of these routes during the off-peak.
 

pt_mad

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DRS Fife Circle' (Edit: MK2) slam door stock if it's not replaced on the route by then. Which it could well be.
 
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Chester1

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It’s also very much looking like that some pacers will continue with Northern into next year as I believe they’ve been having teething problems with the 195s and 331s.

It might be leaning towards that outcome but its not confirmed. The teething problems are not much worse than average.
 

Mikey C

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Ah yes, the 466s. I'm curious to see how they address this issue on the Bromley North and Sheerness shuttle lines. No doubt they won't want to waste 4-coach 465s on either of these routes during the off-peak.

Surely it would make sense to do enough of the 466s to cover these services, and not bother with the ones just used alongside 465s?
 

Spirit555

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I would imagine that most operators require some form of "derogation" mainly due to the knock effect of late deliveries/entry into service of new stock.

Unless someone knows otherwise.
 

Roast Veg

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Surely it would make sense to do enough of the 466s to cover these services, and not bother with the ones just used alongside 465s?
Unfortunately that means maintaining a microfleet and locking them into two diagrams that are quite a ways away from each other.
 

geoffk

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Surely it would make sense to do enough of the 466s to cover these services, and not bother with the ones just used alongside 465s?
I don't really understand why the 466s will be allowed to run coupled to a 465. Both types are of course non-gangwayed and if one of each is coupled only one unit will have a PRM toilet. If that's the case, then surely pacers can continue in service if coupled to a compliant unit (150, 156 or 158).
 

33017

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And about half their 158s.
Not so. 16 158s completed and 2 being done so just 6 running around unmodified (820/821/827/833/834 & 838). All predicted to be completed by the end of November.

10 150s modified, 3 being done and the last of the remaining 23 should be stopped by Christmas.
 

anamyd

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Not so. 16 158s completed and 2 being done so just 6 running around unmodified (820/821/827/833/834 & 838). All predicted to be completed by the end of November.

10 150s modified, 3 being done and the last of the remaining 23 should be stopped by Christmas.
thanks for that :) what are the unit numbers of the 10 in-service PRM modified TfW 150s...?

150s seen by me with PRM mods:
217, 242, 253, 254, 257, 284 and 285 (the latter two also having had corrosion repair)

that's 7, I'm guessing the other 3 in service with PRM mods are:
229, 236 and 241...?

that the 3 in works are:
240, 250 and one other...?

and that the 23 of the following 24 are in service unmodified / non-compliant:
208, 213, 227, 230, 231, 235, 237, 245 (still with original door buttons!), 251, 252, 255, 256, 258, 259, 260, 262, 264, 267, 278, 279, 280, 281, 282 and 283...?


I have 15 TfW 158s listed as being seen by me in service with PRM mods:
818, 819, 822, 823, 824, 825, 826, 829, 830, 831, 835, 836, 839, 840 and 841

with 828 apparently being a 16th but I haven't seen it yet

leaving 8 in service unmodified / non-compliant:
820, 821, 827, 832, 833, 834, 837 and 838 (you said 6 and left out 832 and 837)


I understand that the first TfW 153 (and also the first 153 full stop) in PRM works is 325

which leaves 303, 312, 320, 323, 327, 329, 333, 353, 361, 362, 367 and 369 unmodified / non-compliant


so 23 150s, 12 153s and 8 158s (a total of 43 TfW units) need to be modified in 5.5 months, which is rate of 3 in half a month and then 8 per the 5 full months. is this realistically achievable...? it has so far taken about a year for 30 TfW units to be modified.
 

anthony263

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I dont think they are going to be able to do it and with all the delays I wouldn't be surprised if tfw like northern asked to continue to use some Pacers as a short term.measure during 2020 to allow the rest of the sprinters to go away for modifications
 

JamesT

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Wouldn’t it be quicker to list all the TOCs that are compliant? :)
 

cactustwirly

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I don't really understand why the 466s will be allowed to run coupled to a 465. Both types are of course non-gangwayed and if one of each is coupled only one unit will have a PRM toilet. If that's the case, then surely pacers can continue in service if coupled to a compliant unit (150, 156 or 158).

Because the 466s are fully compliant apart from the toilet, the 142s are knowhere near compliant
 

cnjb8

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EMT Class 153 are not compliant but when Abellio takes over, Greater Anglia 156s will replace them. Judging by Anglia delays, this date maybe pushed back.
 
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