Which train type has best performance climbing the Lickey Incline?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by linuxlad7, 12 Oct 2018.

  1. linuxlad7

    linuxlad7 Member

    Messages:
    106
    Joined:
    9 Nov 2017
    Which has a better performance up the Lickey, A TYPE 220 VOYAGER OR a 323

    What about when the leaves fall? Im guessing that the 323s have a better distribution 0f powered and unpowered axles??

    I gather the leaf fall timetable is now in operation for a couple of months on Cross City
     
    Last edited: 19 Oct 2018
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. Journeyman

    Journeyman Established Member

    Messages:
    2,326
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2014
    323, I would have thought. There's a video of one going up it on YouTube, you'd barely notice you were climbing.
     
  4. NoOnesFool

    NoOnesFool Member

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    26 Aug 2018
    I would guess a Class 220, because the power is distributed better, and also I'd imagine that they are higher powered than an inter-urban commuter train.
     
  5. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,831
    Joined:
    3 May 2015
    Tried a 323 up the incline for the first time the other week; it wasn't quite as sprightly as I'd expected (but way, way, way better than a 170 from a standing start!)
     
  6. linuxlad7

    linuxlad7 Member

    Messages:
    106
    Joined:
    9 Nov 2017
    there are recent postings on youtube for a 323 and a 170 climbing Bromsgrove to
    Barnt Green, but haven't found one for a voyager 220 yet (do XC even do stops at Bromsgrove any more)
     
    Last edited: 13 Oct 2018
  7. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    13,671
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    323s are initially handicapped by the running brake test on starting from Bromsgrove.
    Despite that, I reckoned an eventual 70mph uphill on the one 323 trip I have done.
    Voyagers get a good run at the hill, so they would stay closer to the 80mph PSR limit.
     
  8. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    21,430
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    AIUI they finished with the revised post-electrification EMU timetable - there were discussions about it at the time. I think all XC calls would normally have been 170s though?
     
  9. alangla

    alangla Member

    Messages:
    715
    Joined:
    11 Apr 2018
    Location:
    Glasgow
    I'd love to see 2x86, an 88 or a 92 providing banking assistance to one of the heavy freights. That could potentially be impressive.
    I know EWS did trials in the 2000s with 92s hauling HTAs over Beattock, believe the loco got a bit hot but it flew over the top
     
  10. Laurencemcd

    Laurencemcd New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2018
    Having been on both up the Incline, I’ve clocked a super voyager (from a running start) achieving no more than 60mph until the summit, and a 323 achieving no more than 63mph until the summit. So I’d probably say a 323 by a small margin. Both easily achieved 90mph by Barnt Green.
     
    Last edited: 13 Oct 2018
  11. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

    Messages:
    1,901
    Joined:
    10 May 2014
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Currently riding on a (late running) northbound 323 that managed 50mph as it passed over the A448 road, and nearly 65mph at the summit.
     
    Last edited: 13 Oct 2018
  12. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

    Messages:
    1,901
    Joined:
    10 May 2014
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Without being able to distribute the tractive effort throughout the train (like an MU train normally does), the acceleration will be limited by the maximum forces allowed within the train (e.g. coupler strength when pulling hard, and the risk of derailing wagons when pushing hard). If you've only got 2 miles to the summit, you need good acceleration get to a reasonable speed at the top from a standing start...

    (Half a dozen 68s distributed along a 3000 tonne freight train might be a nice demonstration/test run though :D - I suspect 6 x 88s might just be a tad too much for the OHLE power supply to handle...;))
     
    Last edited: 16 Oct 2018
  13. DelW

    DelW Member

    Messages:
    1,005
    Joined:
    15 Jan 2015
    To stretch a simile somewhat, Big Bertha's spirit must be looking down open-mouthed from the Great Scrapyard in the Sky. I wonder if she ever reached that speed even going down the incline?
    It's possible I saw Big Bertha in childhood as my dad took me to visit Blackwell on occasions. However I'd have been under four years old when she was withdrawn, and I don't have any memories earlier than the pannier tanks, which I do remember quite clearly, particularly all the whistle signals as they dropped off at the top and crossed over to run back to Bromsgrove.
     
  14. ac6000cw

    ac6000cw Established Member

    Messages:
    1,901
    Joined:
    10 May 2014
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    I'm sure it is :smile: - just like all those steam banking engines from Shap (where post-electrification, passenger trains had to start slowing down for the speed restriction at the summit!)

    Given the much lower speed restriction at the base of the incline in those days, and the limited braking power available as a light engine, I suspect she would have been completely giddy even at 30 mph :D
     
  15. linuxlad7

    linuxlad7 Member

    Messages:
    106
    Joined:
    9 Nov 2017
    Is the regen braking on the 323s helping on the Lickey now we're well into the leafy season?
     
    Last edited: 1 Nov 2018
  16. atillathehunn

    atillathehunn Established Member

    Messages:
    1,398
    Joined:
    6 Jan 2010
    Location:
    NL
    Sorry if I am missing something obvious but why does the 323 need a brake test while other trains do not?
     
  17. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

    Messages:
    9,473
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2008
    The 323 has reversed at Bromsgrove so needs a running brake test.
     
  18. XDM

    XDM Member

    Messages:
    483
    Joined:
    9 Apr 2016
    Re the running brake test starting uphill from Bromsgrove.

    Only about half the TOCS mandate a running brake test.
    For example Southern, South eastern, Scotrail, & South West trains do not. (correct me if wrong, but I have checked with former colleagues)

    Someone at my old company calculated it costs about 75p in electricity each time it is done per 12 car train, plus about 10 secs delay per train A huge sum over a year for a whole TOC. If you do a full cost benefit analysis the cost of passenger time wasted is vast too.

    Only a madman would say don't do it if it needed, but none of the millions of running brake tests done since they came into vogue years ago has revealed a brake failure - so why do many companies still mandate their drivers to do it.
    Do they have money & other people's time to burn?

    If West Midland still insist on running brake tests why not get up to near the top of Lickey & then burn off 5 mph in notch two.
    The effect is less costly & if for the first time ever since they were introduced that there was a failure, there is a well known emergency back up system to stop the train. It is pointless!
     
  19. 43096

    43096 Established Member

    Messages:
    6,171
    Joined:
    23 Nov 2015
    It is even more pointless on a modern EMU with dynamic (rheostatic and/or regenerative) braking. All that a running brake test does then is activate the dynamic brake. Which when you think about it, is just proving that the traction motors work - but given that you have to be moving to do a running brake test, you already know that!
     
  20. Bayum

    Bayum Established Member

    Messages:
    1,901
    Joined:
    21 Mar 2008
    Location:
    Leeds
    And find out there are problems with the brakes whilst either still climbing, or even blocking the Lickey if a problem is identified? At least at Bromsgrove the test is done before joining the main line and is less likely to cause trouble there should anything be found.
     
  21. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    45,350
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Bromsgrove station is on the main line.
     
  22. big all

    big all On Moderation

    Messages:
    746
    Joined:
    23 Sep 2018
    Location:
    redhill
    to be fair a running brake test tells you little unless somthing is very out
    an experienced driver will know without a running brake test when the brakes are good a bit poor very poor or excellent without thinking
    years ago i left victoria after coupling a 4epb to another 4epd i stopped at battersea ok on leaving i noticed lack off power so off overload reset and open up again still sluggish but kept going now any experianced driver will know what will happen at clapham juction without even thinking which will be proven 10m into the braking zone for clapham jct
    any one like to hazard a guess at the cause :D
     
  23. Bayum

    Bayum Established Member

    Messages:
    1,901
    Joined:
    21 Mar 2008
    Location:
    Leeds
    Where trains can be routed around it, yes?
     
  24. Fincra5

    Fincra5 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,853
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2009
    We do have to do Running Brake Tests on SN. Our PDP says "At least 30mph", unlike the rulebook doesn't specify a speed. We also have to do a RTB prior/ on the start of a steep falling gradient.
     
  25. Wilts Wanderer

    Wilts Wanderer Established Member

    Messages:
    1,151
    Joined:
    21 Nov 2016
    The relative frequency with which units are carded for 'poor brake' - admittedly DMUs I'm my experience - proves in my mind the value of the running test. If nothing else, it calibrates the driver's expectation to the units performance and helps prevent any overshoot at the first stop location encountered, especially in bad weather or with poor rail head conditions.
     
  26. 142Pilot

    142Pilot Member

    Messages:
    120
    Joined:
    24 Sep 2018

    Correct.

    The running brake test is for me to judge how well/badly the train is going to stop, and allows me to judge where I am likely to start braking for the more difficult stations/speed restrictions.
     
  27. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

    Messages:
    6,225
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2013
    Location:
    UK
    Mandatory at Southeastern.

    Mandated by the Rule book too.

     
  28. AndrewE

    AndrewE Established Member

    Messages:
    3,324
    Joined:
    9 Nov 2015
    I would have thought that adhesion would have been the limiting factor in most cases.
     
  29. linuxlad7

    linuxlad7 Member

    Messages:
    106
    Joined:
    9 Nov 2017
    which brings us back to regen braking especially on 323s and during leaf fall on the Lickey - is it a real effect this autumn?? It would be interesting to monitor a few traction motor currents...
     
    Last edited: 7 Nov 2018
  30. HLE

    HLE Established Member

    Messages:
    1,258
    Joined:
    27 Dec 2013
    The cross city always suffers with leaf fall.
     
  31. Wilts Wanderer

    Wilts Wanderer Established Member

    Messages:
    1,151
    Joined:
    21 Nov 2016
    I don’t have a particularly mechanically minded brain, but I always struggle to imagine a unit sliding on greasy rails due to a regenerative brake application.
     

Share This Page