Whitby-Grosmont - NT and NYMR

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70014IronDuke

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I have some questions with regard to the North Yorks Moors Railway running services to and from Whitby vis-a-vis Northern Trains, if anyone knows, please.

1) Are the NYMR and NT treated as equals on the route?

I assume that would mean, if a train gets out of its path, then tough on that company if it then entails further delays while waiting for a path on the single line section - it's just too bad.

OTOH, it could be argued that the NYM trains are, essentially (?) tourist trains. Most folks on board won't mind too much if the train is 15-20 minutes late due to allowing a "normal and proper", but delayed, NT train priority for a path.

At the same time, this could lead to extra costs for the NYMR - both in crew time and higher running costs (steam engine standing idle) and potentially upsetting the NYMR timetable on its own sections of line.

2) Are tickets on the section between Grosmont and Whitby interchangeable - or are all trains operator-only tickets? In other words, if I go to Whitby and buy a ticket to Grosmont (say) - can I go on any train?

3) What happens if NT want to run more services, and allowing this would reduce, or even take up all, the paths used by NYM? Could the NYM block additional trains to Middlesbrough, if NT applied to run more trains, or would NT get priority?

Essentially, how does this all work out? If the NYMR is not treated as an equal TOC, maybe it is re-imbursed by lower track charges?

Kind of an intriguing situation.
 
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SeanG

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NYMR are, AFAIK classed as an open access operator - but I'm happy to be told otherwise by someone more knowledgeable!

Tickets are not interchangeable - with the NYMR being considerably higher

I would imagine that if further (much needed) Esk Valley services are introduced then they would get priority over the NYMR railway.

I do see the benefits of NYMR's services to Whitby though, the average Joe would much rather see a trip on a steam train to the coast and then a few hours in Whitby as a day out. Northern's services mean that a day trip to Whitby is pretty poor on the train.
 

Skutter

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As I understand it:

1a) In terms of signalling priority, delay attribution and day-to-day running, both are treated equally. However:
1b) In planning the timetable, the franchised operators get first choice of when to run services, and the open access TOC must fit in around them. The available Whitby-Pickering times are less than ideal, because Transpennine's Manchester Airport services restrict when Northern can run Whitby trains in/out of Middlesbrough.

2) Tickets are not interchangeable, although each TOC can request acceptance in cases of disruption. When NYMR first started regular running, Northern accepted their tickets but passenger reaction to the afternoon school train out of Whitby apparently wasn't good.

3) The NYMR have Firm Rights for 3 return services to Whitby until 2023, according to their track access licence, so they can insist on those and Northern cannot take them away. Northern might be able to apply for extra services which would displace the 2 or 3 additional NYMR services, but would need ORR approval and wouldn't be popular.

Some sort of infrastructure improvement will be needed before additional daytime services will fit at the Whitby end.
 
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30907

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As I understand it:

1b...The available Whitby-Pickering times are less than ideal, because Transpennine's Manchester Airport services restrict when Northern can run Whitby trains in/out of Middlesbrough.

Not sure it's specifically TPE at Middlesbrough, though obviously there are pathing constraints, especially with the extra Nunthorpes now running. The Whitby timetable is built around the school trains, so there's not much flexibility anyway.
 

70014IronDuke

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NYMR are, AFAIK classed as an open access operator - but I'm happy to be told otherwise by someone more knowledgeable!

Tickets are not interchangeable - with the NYMR being considerably higher

Yes, I can imagine.
But do they do a 'local resident' scheme to encourage locals to use the trains as a 'genuine' form of transport? There must be 'normals' who would like to travel Pickering/Grosmont etc to Whitby, and even v v - but would not be prepared to pay premium tourist fares, surely? But perhaps the don't want to muddy the market waters.

...
I do see the benefits of NYMR's services to Whitby though, the average Joe would much rather see a trip on a steam train to the coast and then a few hours in Whitby as a day out. Northern's services mean that a day trip to Whitby is pretty poor on the train.

Absolutely. I presume the good burghers of Whitby, not to mention the cafe and pub owners and ice cream sellers, would notice the difference if the NYMR stopped their through running. I do not wish to belittle the NYMR's splendid efforts in any way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...
3) The NYMR have Firm Rights for 3 return services to Whitby until 2023, according to their track access licence, so they can insist on those and Northern cannot take them away. Northern might be able to apply for extra services which would displace the 2 or 3 additional NYMR services, but would need ORR approval and wouldn't be popular.

Some sort of infrastructure improvement will be needed before additional daytime services will fit at the Whitby end.

So, are you saying that, in addition to the long single-line sections of the Esk Valley 'main line' to Middlesbrough - the station capacity there is also a constraint on improved services?

Thanks to everyone for inputs.
 
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D6975

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The timetable is about to have a significant change fairly soon. The new Northern franchise will be running an early morning train out of Whitby to arrive in Middlesbrough before 08.30.
This will mean either a very early ecs or a late night service to Whitby stabling in the station overnight, I suspect the former as otherwise they would have mentioned the other extra service.
 

yorksrob

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Yes, I can imagine.
But do they do a 'local resident' scheme to encourage locals to use the trains as a 'genuine' form of transport? There must be 'normals' who would like to travel Pickering/Grosmont etc to Whitby, and even v v - but would not be prepared to pay premium tourist fares, surely? But perhaps the don't want to muddy the market waters.



Absolutely. I presume the good burghers of Whitby, not to mention the cafe and pub owners and ice cream sellers, would notice the difference if the NYMR stopped their through running. I do not wish to belittle the NYMR's splendid efforts in any way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



So, are you saying that, in addition to the long single-line sections of the Esk Valley 'main line' to Middlesbrough - the station capacity there is also a constraint on improved services?

Thanks to everyone for inputs.

The stations coped with a 156/142 formation, so there's a way to go before their capacity is reached.
 

70014IronDuke

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The timetable is about to have a significant change fairly soon. The new Northern franchise will be running an early morning train out of Whitby to arrive in Middlesbrough before 08.30.
This will mean either a very early ecs or a late night service to Whitby stabling in the station overnight, I suspect the former as otherwise they would have mentioned the other extra service.

Well, that has to be the best news for the line for 20-odd years, doesn't it?
(where will it pass the current schools train to Whitby? Battersby? Will be more like before 08.00 arrival, rather than before 08.30, Id have thought.)

If the new morning train is a success, they may have to add a new evening service out of Boro!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The stations coped with a 156/142 formation, so there's a way to go before their capacity is reached.

not stations (along the line) - I used the singular, ie Middlesbrough.

My understanding was that the poster meant platform capacity there is an issue.
 
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darloscott

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Might be worth mentioning that a condition of the planning permission for the new potash mine in Whitby will provide funding for an extra unit to double the daytime service soon also.
 

gimmea50anyday

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TPE dont necessarily interfere with Whitby services as both services can occupy platform 1 at the same time, and indeed do on a saturday morning, but this limits whitby train length to 2x156 and to 1x185 on the TPE departure. (Today I saw a whitby service depart Newcastle formed of 142+156+142)

However I can see where the issue may lie as the whitby branch is often used to reverse terminating TPE services, the solution here would simply to use the west dock more often for the TPE service but then again that would depend on where the whitby services were due to run through to, as some continue to Newcastle or Bishop Auckland while others terminate in middlesbrough, turning these around in the HST sidings. It is very rare for TPE to require a second shunt into the HST sidings any more as the turn round times are now much more tighter than previously since the 5tph TPE timetable was introduced.
 

yorksrob

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Well, that has to be the best news for the line for 20-odd years, doesn't it?
(where will it pass the current schools train to Whitby? Battersby? Will be more like before 08.00 arrival, rather than before 08.30, Id have thought.)

If the new morning train is a success, they may have to add a new evening service out of Boro!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


not stations (along the line) - I used the singular, ie Middlesbrough.

My understanding was that the poster meant platform capacity there is an issue.

Ah, I see.

I would have thought that the other Northern and TPE are more or less clockface by now ? Therefore presumably what works in a given slot currently would also work on another hour.
 

30907

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I would have thought that the other Northern and TPE are more or less clockface by now ? Therefore presumably what works in a given slot currently would also work on another hour.

Indeed so. In fact the second biggest constraint (after the school train times, and with the current infrastructure - see Alan Williams in MR) is the almost hourly Newcastle-Nunthorpe.

As a result the lunchtime train up from Whitby now runs half an hour earlier than I remembered - about as early as it reasonably can, when previously it was about as late as it could be. That's how (in)flexible the timetable is. And interworking with the Newcastles at Nunthorpe would make no significant difference.
 

SpDr60

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I think, from the German point of view, where many branch-lines are reopend, is the fact that there is a infrequent to slow Whitby-Middlesbrough Service. Whitby is a Searesort with many people ling there and commuting to Middlesbrough. If you would install new crossing loops between Whitby and Middlesborough and a 2 houerly clockface timetable from 6 in the morning to 10 in the evening and reduce the travel time about 10 Min you would see crowded trains. The smaller stations and halts could be reduced to request stops only. The biggest Problem is the freuquent and fast and cheaper X93 Bus Service Middlesbroug-Whitby by Arriva North-East.
 

yorksrob

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Indeed so. In fact the second biggest constraint (after the school train times, and with the current infrastructure - see Alan Williams in MR) is the almost hourly Newcastle-Nunthorpe.

As a result the lunchtime train up from Whitby now runs half an hour earlier than I remembered - about as early as it reasonably can, when previously it was about as late as it could be. That's how (in)flexible the timetable is. And interworking with the Newcastles at Nunthorpe would make no significant difference.

Yes, given it's only two platforms, their best bet would probably be running trains through the station to turn them back.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think, from the German point of view, where many branch-lines are reopend, is the fact that there is a infrequent to slow Whitby-Middlesbrough Service. Whitby is a Searesort with many people ling there and commuting to Middlesbrough. If you would install new crossing loops between Whitby and Middlesborough and a 2 houerly clockface timetable from 6 in the morning to 10 in the evening and reduce the travel time about 10 Min you would see crowded trains. The smaller stations and halts could be reduced to request stops only. The biggest Problem is the freuquent and fast and cheaper X93 Bus Service Middlesbroug-Whitby by Arriva North-East.

Given how many people seem to use the line when I'm on it, I'm not sure the bus is much of an issue - the train still seems to be preferred by plenty.

You're right - the timetable is inadequate. There are actually two passing points between Whitby and Grosmont already, so as long as something could be threaded between the extended NYMR services I don't know (presumably easier now that Whitby has two platforms).
 

Skutter

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So, are you saying that, in addition to the long single-line sections of the Esk Valley 'main line' to Middlesbrough - the station capacity there is also a constraint on improved services? .

Whitby P2 is accessed by a ground frame which needs unlocking with the token. Going in or out of P2 therefore takes several minutes longer than P1, which makes it harder to slot in a Grosmont-Whitby service while the Northern train is turning around at Whitby, for instance.
Network Rail have the timetable planning rules at http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browsedirectory.aspx?root=&dir=\rules of the route\Viewable copy The sections on the Whitby branch are unusually thorough in their detail.

Might be worth mentioning that a condition of the planning permission for the new potash mine in Whitby will provide funding for an extra unit to double the daytime service soon also.

The timetable is about to have a significant change fairly soon. The new Northern franchise will be running an early morning train out of Whitby to arrive in Middlesbrough before 08.30.
This will mean either a very early ecs or a late night service to Whitby stabling in the station overnight, I suspect the former as otherwise they would have mentioned the other extra service.

The Potash money will be very welcome, but no doubt is conditional on them actually raising the money and building the mine. I wonder if Network Rail have a plan for spending their section of the money (up to £4.5M) to actually make it happen?
I think the early train will have to cross at Battersby, meaning an 06:30 Whitby departure, arriving at Middlesbrough about 08:00. Any commuters can then get the existing 17:40 back home (but it's a longer working day than I'd want to do!)

You're right - the timetable is inadequate. There are actually two passing points between Whitby and Grosmont already, so as long as something could be threaded between the extended NYMR services I don't know (presumably easier now that Whitby has two platforms).

There are no passing points on that stretch - NYMR can pass at Grosmont, otherwise it's Glaisdale first opportunity.
 

Harpers Tate

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[pedant]...and in any case, it should be three: Nunthorpe, Battersby*, Glaisdale.

*Battersby = not exactly "passing, more a kind of sharing and shunting...... [/pedant]
 

70014IronDuke

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I think, from the German point of view, where many branch-lines are reopend, ..

I would be interested in reading about what's been going on in Germany - if you would start a new thread under Branch Line Reopenings in Germany - or some such title.

..
is the fact that there is a infrequent to slow Whitby-Middlesbrough Service. Whitby is a Searesort with many people ling there and commuting to Middlesbrough. If you would install new crossing loops between Whitby and Middlesborough ...

The ideal place for a new passing loop would be Castleton Moor, i would guess. I'm not sure if there is space for a new (or reinstated?) loop there?

The alternative would be to increase line speed - I'm not sure what it is - 50 mph? 60 mph? -
and introduce some limted stop services, coupled with, perhaps, request stops, as you suggest.

and a 2 hourly clockface timetable from 6 in the morning to 10 in the evening and reduce the travel time about 10 Min you would see crowded trains

I don't know if the line could be realistically speeded up to make it an attractive commute competing with road?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not sure it's specifically TPE at Middlesbrough, though obviously there are pathing constraints, especially with the extra Nunthorpes now running. The Whitby timetable is built around the school trains, so there's not much flexibility anyway.

Could the Nunthorpe - Middlesbrough section be doubled and/or the local stops get a dedicated service, with the Whitby trains running fast from Middlebrough? Or possibly (not sure what the traffic is like) stopping at James Cook only?
 
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Tomnick

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The ideal place for a new passing loop would be Castleton Moor, i would guess. I'm not sure if there is space for a new (or reinstated?) loop there?

The alternative would be to increase line speed - I'm not sure what it is - 50 mph? 60 mph? -
and introduce some limted stop services, coupled with, perhaps, request stops, as you suggest.

I don't know if the line could be realistically speeded up to make it an attractive commute competing with road?

Could the Nunthorpe - Middlesbrough section be doubled and/or the local stops get a dedicated service, with the Whitby trains running fast from Middlebrough? Or possibly (not sure what the traffic is like) stopping at James Cook only?
I quickly put together a bit of a vague proposal a couple of years ago, in response to a discussion both on here and elsewhere last year (actually to disprove something else, but that doesn't matter). It does show that there's quite a bit of potential with the combination of a new (or reinstated!) crossing loop at Castleton Moor, a new curve and station at Battersby along with removal of the existing station and associated infrastructure there, and a degree of resignalling to split the Glaisdale-Whitby section and get trains onto and off the NYMR's infrastructure more readily. It should just require an extra TPE unit diagram too (easier said than done, of course).

Whether the investment, and higher operating costs would be justified, is another question altogether!
 

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70014IronDuke

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I quickly put together a bit of a vague proposal a couple of years ago, in response to a discussion both on here and elsewhere last year (actually to disprove something else, but that doesn't matter). It does show that there's quite a bit of potential with the combination of a new (or reinstated!) crossing loop at Castleton Moor, a new curve and station at Battersby along with removal of the existing station and associated infrastructure there, and a degree of resignalling to split the Glaisdale-Whitby section and get trains onto and off the NYMR's infrastructure more readily. It should just require an extra TPE unit diagram too (easier said than done, of course).

Whether the investment, and higher operating costs would be justified, is another question altogether!

High-speed on the Eskdale line!
Whitby to Boro in roughly an hour!

You should advertise that timetable to the relevant councils. I don't know how much the new curve avoiding Battersby would cost, however. And station.

Might it not be a better idea to build the curve, but leave the station as it is, meaning a) you have another passing point option and b) you don't have to fork out the money for a new station, which would cost a zillion for about 2,000 passengers a year.
 

Tomnick

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Although retaining the facility to cross trains at Battersby might be useful, I'm sure that the cost of providing signalling for a triangular layout would far, far exceed the cost of a simple (and single) platform.

Anyone who wants to borrow the above proposal and present it to whoever is, of course, more than welcome to do so. It's not my fight though :)
 
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