Who do I have to show my ticket to?

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AndyLandy

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The terms of those Byelaws make it pretty clear to me that anyone associated with the railways is entitled to check tickets, whether they're an employee or agent of any TOC, or they're authorised by one (which would cover the likes of G4S staff).

So, if someone in uniform at a railway station asks to see your ticket, you're obliged to show it to them.
 
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Anvil1984

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It does happen but only on a planned basis, for example, TPE drivers and guards operate most (if not all) Northern services between Hull and Scarborough. There's a similar arrangement on the other side of the Humber for the Barton services. But those are long standing planned arrangements. I don't think it would be that practical on a short notice, adhock basis to cover for driver unavailability due to sickness for example.
Sorry to go off topic but I have to squash this myth regarding TPE and Hull to Scarborough. They only work diagrams involving the unit which comes off Scarborough first thing and the one that stables there overnight (plus a couple of Hull to Beverley's to pad diagrams out) Northern staff work the majority of the route
 

ainsworth74

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Sorry to go off topic but I have to squash this myth regarding TPE and Hull to Scarborough.
My apologies :oops:

Though I've definitely caught a service in the middle of the day from Cottingham that had originated from Scarborough and was being worked by a TPE guard (no idea about the driver), any ideas what happened there? Would there have been a crew change at Beverley?
 

6Gman

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It does happen but only on a planned basis, for example, TPE drivers and guards operate most (if not all) Northern services between Hull and Scarborough. There's a similar arrangement on the other side of the Humber for the Barton services. But those are long standing planned arrangements. I don't think it would be that practical on a short notice, adhock basis to cover for driver unavailability due to sickness for example.
I know it's not quite the same thing but back in the 90s when I was working for Res (or whatever they were called) I used to spend hours on a Friday ringing round other people's depots desperately trying to get jobs covered that had been turned down by (mainly) Crewe!

Carnforth and Mossend were always helpful :D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So, if someone in uniform at a railway station asks to see your ticket, you're obliged to show it to them.
Unless he's a postman! :D
 

A-driver

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Hypothetically they could ask in an attempt to get undesirables removed from the train?
I sometimes ask to see tickets on late night trains if people are being rowdy and annoying in the first class bit behind the cab. Then tell them to get out of first when they show a standard ticket and lock first class shut.
 

jon0844

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Good on you. I've seen a FCC driver on a 365 physically eject someone from first class and OFF the train, as he clearly heard enough commotion to want him off. The driver wasn't someone to mess with either.

The drunk passenger tried to get back on but was thrown off again. Then the driver returned to the cab and off we went. I can't remember what train it was, and it might have even been the last (0136) service.

Almost like the 'big man' incident except it never made the papers! It might have even been the Wagn days, so far enough back that people weren't able to film it or Tweet about it. I saw the whole thing though, as did many others who were extremely grateful.

However, what about management? Wouldn't they see your job as being to drive the train and not risk any confrontation? I'd back you up, but would they?
 

A-driver

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I can't see management criticising you for throwing people off. If they are annoying me whilst I'm trying to drive then I believe I have every right to throw them out first class. I wouldn't go as far as throwing them off the train unless I thought they were a threat to other passengers and I'd get BTP involved rather than do it myself (I'm likely to come off far worse if it gets heated!)
 

causton

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I can't see management criticising you for throwing people off. If they are annoying me whilst I'm trying to drive then I believe I have every right to throw them out first class. I wouldn't go as far as throwing them off the train unless I thought they were a threat to other passengers and I'd get BTP involved rather than do it myself (I'm likely to come off far worse if it gets heated!)
That's what I would say. If you think they are going to be a distraction to you, then remove them from the train. If you think you can do it yourself and cause less disruption than waiting for the BTP or whoever to turn up, do it! :)
 

jopsuk

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Going back to the first post, I'm not sure why you would even question the right of the ticket inspectors to control access to the platform?
 

Tibbs

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Going back to the first post, I'm not sure why you would even question the right of the ticket inspectors to control access to the platform?
Because I don't have intimate knowledge of the railway laws and was thinking about it.

Intuitively, I would have thought that it wasn't any of Virgin's business if I had an LM ticket or not. I would liken it to those retail parks that have a single entrance for 2 shops. I wouldn't expect a Tesco security guard to ask to see the receipt for the M&S shopping I just did.

I hasten to add that I've never refused to show my ticket, as it's hardly a big thing, I was curious from a theoretical standpoint.
 

GadgetMan

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Intuitively, I would have thought that it wasn't any of Virgin's business if I had an LM ticket or not. I would liken it to those retail parks that have a single entrance for 2 shop
Would you feel the same if you approached a Virgin Trains member of staff and showed them a LM ticket asking for advice and got the response; "Sorry sir, you're an LM customer, nothing to do with us so go ask someone else."

I bet you'd also be very grateful if you had a LM only ticket and due to disruption VT were allowing you to travel on their services.

The railway is split up enough as it is. If you want it split further then the only losers will be the passengers.
 

Tibbs

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Would you feel the same if you approached a Virgin Trains member of staff and showed them a LM ticket asking for advice and got the response; "Sorry sir, you're an LM customer, nothing to do with us so go ask someone else."

I bet you'd also be very grateful if you had a LM only ticket and due to disruption VT were allowing you to travel on their services.

The railway is split up enough as it is. If you want it split further then the only losers will be the passengers.
You've made so many wrong assumptions in this post it's almost amusing.

Firstly if I held an LM ticket I'd ask LM employees, I wouldn't expect Virgin employees to help me as I'm not their customer. If they do help me, great, but it would never be expected. I'm also not sure I'd trust info given to me by VT about LM as they're not trained (or paid) to know this information. Also there's the risk factor. How understanding would an LM RPI be if I told them I got on a wrong train because of something a VT employee told me? I would bet next month's rent that his response would be 'you should ask LM employees about LM services, sir. Now please sign here for your penalty fare.'

I wouldn't be grateful to Virgin for 'letting' me travel on their trains. If I hold a ticket on LM then they are contracted to get me to my destination. Virgin get paid to take me if LM can't and you can bet it's a damn sight cheaper for LM had they sent us by Virgin (you know Virgin won't carry me for free, right?) than by taxi.

And I don't think I made a comment on the state of the railways, or what I think its future should be. The companies are separate, and no amount of wishing it were otherwise will change that. I've made no comment as to whether i think it's a good idea or not. Please don't ascribe to me views you don't know I hold. If I want you to know my views on something you can be sure I'll tell you.
 

GadgetMan

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You've made so many wrong assumptions in this post it's almost amusing.

Firstly if I held an LM ticket I'd ask LM employees, I wouldn't expect Virgin employees to help me as I'm not their customer. If they do help me, great, but it would never be expected. I'm also not sure I'd trust info given to me by VT about LM as they're not trained (or paid) to know this information. Also there's the risk factor. How understanding would an LM RPI be if I told them I got on a wrong train because of something a VT employee told me? I would bet next month's rent that his response would be 'you should ask LM employees about LM services, sir. Now please sign here for your penalty fare.'

I wouldn't be grateful to Virgin for 'letting' me travel on their trains. If I hold a ticket on LM then they are contracted to get me to my destination. Virgin get paid to take me if LM can't and you can bet it's a damn sight cheaper for LM had they sent us by Virgin (you know Virgin won't carry me for free, right?) than by taxi.

And I don't think I made a comment on the state of the railways, or what I think its future should be. The companies are separate, and no amount of wishing it were otherwise will change that. I've made no comment as to whether i think it's a good idea or not. Please don't ascribe to me views you don't know I hold. If I want you to know my views on something you can be sure I'll tell you.

.....And you think my post carried inaccurate assumptions.

So you turn up to a ticket office/station manned by VT staff and want a LM only ticket and advice, where are you gonna find a LM member of staff to sell u a ticket and provide advice? That's right you won't!

As far as I'm aware at times of disruption, TOCs agree to carry each other's passengers without money exchanging hands between these TOCs (but I'm happy to be proven wrong).

On the railway you are not a LM/VT/XC/..... customer. You are a customer of the railway and are entitled to assistance from any member of railway staff regardless of what ticket you hold and who they are employed by. This does not necessarily mean getting away with traveling on train services not covered by the rail ticket.
 

jopsuk

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Intuitively, I would have thought that it wasn't any of Virgin's business if I had an LM ticket or not..
Other than showing them your ticket, how else could you prove that you're not attempting to board the Virgin train on the adjacent platform without a ticket?

Plus, as pointed out, the railway is somewhat more joined up.

Anyway, where multiple shops share an entrance, the security guards may well be paid for by all tennants...
 

Tibbs

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.....And you think my post carried inaccurate assumptions.

So you turn up to a ticket office/station manned by VT staff and want a LM only ticket and advice, where are you gonna find a LM member of staff to sell u a ticket and provide advice? That's right you won't!

As far as I'm aware at times of disruption, TOCs agree to carry each other's passengers without money exchanging hands between these TOCs (but I'm happy to be proven wrong).

On the railway you are not a LM/VT/XC/..... customer. You are a customer of the railway and are entitled to assistance from any member of railway staff regardless of what ticket you hold and who they are employed by. This does not necessarily mean getting away with traveling on train services not covered by the rail ticket.
As I said in my post, if I had to ask a VT operative about an LM service, I wouldn't take it as gospel. In the scenario you describe, I would seek clarification with the LM guard asap.

As for travelling on someone else's service, it may be quid pro quo, but that doesn't make it free. If LM said that it would no longer let VT customers travel on their service you could guarantee that VT would reciprocate. They may not pay directly, but they do pay.


Other than showing them your ticket, how else could you prove that you're not attempting to board the Virgin train on the adjacent platform without a ticket?

Plus, as pointed out, the railway is somewhat more joined up.

Anyway, where multiple shops share an entrance, the security guards may well be paid for by all tennants...
I guess this is the approach where the railways are different to everywhere else. In other commercial enterprises, it's up to the shop to prove I'm a wrongdoer. On the railways it's up to me to prove that I'm not going to do something wrong. Innocent until proven guilty need not apply!
 
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AndyLandy

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I'd like to know where this notion of "LM-only" and "VT-only" tickets came from. For sure, some ticket types are, but many aren't. If I buy an "Any permitted" ticket from Euston to Crewe, it's equally valid on VT and LM services. If I buy a Southampton to Hartford via London ticket (as I do frequently), I'm now a legitimate customer of at least South West Trains, Virgin Trains and London Midland (and quite possibly CrossCountry, First Great Western or Southern, depending on what routeing I use) not to mention London Underground.

I would expect to be able to seek advice from any member of railway staff as to what trains I may or may not use. I would expect to get accurate advice back from either LM or VT staff, and speaking from experience, I know this is true.
 

jon0844

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Most questions aren't going to be such that you're likely to get incorrect advice. Most ticket restrictions will be the same (as in the type of restriction, rather than the specific restriction IYSWIM), so if you asked about something with a LM only advanced ticket (if such exist), VT wouldn't say 'Oh, don't worry - just take the next train' or something like that.

I'd have no problems asking someone from another TOC, but wouldn't expect them to be able to answer every single question I could throw at them. Even TOC staff can't answer everything (and don't, even though people later say they were given permission by a man on the platform).

Finally, I doubt TOCs pay each other to carry passengers during disruption. Even the most dimwitted accountants would have worked out you do it for free, knowing you'll get the favour returned and it will mostly even out - if not in any one tax year, over a longer period of time.
 

Tibbs

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I'd like to know where this notion of "LM-only" and "VT-only" tickets came from. For sure, some ticket types are, but many aren't. If I buy an "Any permitted" ticket from Euston to Crewe, it's equally valid on VT and LM services. If I buy a Southampton to Hartford via London ticket (as I do frequently), I'm now a legitimate customer of at least South West Trains, Virgin Trains and London Midland (and quite possibly CrossCountry, First Great Western or Southern, depending on what routeing I use) not to mention London Underground.

I would expect to be able to seek advice from any member of railway staff as to what trains I may or may not use. I would expect to get accurate advice back from either LM or VT staff, and speaking from experience, I know this is true.
Travelling from London Euston, there is a definite tiering of tickets. Travelling to Birmingham on an LM train is often 1/2 the price as travelling VT, and most of the announcements for VT departures have an addendum "tickets marked 'Londond Midland Trains only are not valid on this service".

As VT tickets are the more expensive there's no need to have a VT only ticket. There are LOTS of LM only tickets. Curiously enough, by definition if you always buy an 'any permitted' ticket then you won't have issues of getting on the train provided by the 'wrong' operator.

Ticketing is an enormously complex thing, best illustrated by a reply on this board that started with the words "It's really very simple" and progressing to 6 paragraphs of explanation!

Most questions aren't going to be such that you're likely to get incorrect advice. Most ticket restrictions will be the same (as in the type of restriction, rather than the specific restriction IYSWIM), so if you asked about something with a LM only advanced ticket (if such exist), VT wouldn't say 'Oh, don't worry - just take the next train' or something like that.
I guess this is where I get paranoid. Reading this forum and other places, and seeing interactions on the train, leads me to believe that getting advice when it's only 'likely' that I'll get the right answer is not sufficient.

Making accidental mistakes can cost a lot of money on the railways. Given the cost of getting it wrong, it's irresponsible of me to ask someone who may not know the right answer. Given the number of times I've asked questions about LM services to LM staff at the Euston Gateline and been given conflicting answers I'd feel very uncomfortable asking the VT staff questions about the LM service.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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I'd like to know where this notion of "LM-only" and "VT-only" tickets came from....
Back at the turn of the century (I forget exactly which year), Virgin Trains introduced a range of fares, known as Virgin Value, for all routes run specifically by Virgin Trains (West Coast and Cross Country) to replace the existing Leisure First, Super Advance and Apex tickets. These tickets were the first to be routed specifically for a Train Operating Company (TOC), Virgin Trains only (and later VXC Only and VWC Only).

Shortly after this they made agreements with some local operators to replace more of the older tickets with the Virgin Value fares, these were routed Virgin Trains & Connections (later VXC & Connections and VWC & Connections).

Gradually these tickets evolved and some other TOCs took to the idea of TOC specific routeings until, by the time of 'Simplification', most advance fares had become TOC specific.
 

krus_aragon

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Shortly after this they made agreements with some local operators to replace more of the older tickets with the Virgin Value fares, these were routed Virgin Trains & Connections (later VXC & Connections and VWC & Connections).

Gradually these tickets evolved and some other TOCs took to the idea of TOC specific routeings until, by the time of 'Simplification', most advance fares had become TOC specific.
This has piqued my interest. How were non-toc-specific advance tickets different from the advance tickets that we see today?
 

SickyNicky

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There are still plenty of non TOC specific advances available around here. For example Hereford to London route AP SLOUGH NEWPORT and Hereford to Liverpool route AP SHREWSBURY.
 

jon0844

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Reading this forum and other places, and seeing interactions on the train, leads me to believe that getting advice when it's only 'likely' that I'll get the right answer is not sufficient.

Making accidental mistakes can cost a lot of money on the railways. Given the cost of getting it wrong, it's irresponsible of me to ask someone who may not know the right answer. Given the number of times I've asked questions about LM services to LM staff at the Euston Gateline and been given conflicting answers I'd feel very uncomfortable asking the VT staff questions about the LM service.
I get that, but what I mean is that you could get bad advice from anyone - whether it's someone working for the same TOC you're using or not. Yes, that's a risk and there are many threads on here about these things.

However, my point was that you're unlikely to get incorrect advice just because someone works for another operator. And certainly not for routine questions. What sort of questions would you be likely to ask? Or, more important, what sort of questions were you asking?

If it's about the validity of a series of tickets you've got to save money, then I'd be wary of the advice given for sure - but to ask what time the next train is or what platform the train to X goes from isn't likely to land you with a court summons.
 

hairyhandedfool

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This has piqued my interest. How were non-toc-specific advance tickets different from the advance tickets that we see today?
Quite simply they had a geographic route which restricted routes to those that went through certain places, usually prefixed with the letters 'AP'. They were not restricted to a specific TOC, other than through the train you booked to travel on. For Example, London-Glasgow Super Advance tickets might have been routed 'AP Rugby' or 'AP Peterborough'.

It should also be noted that the T&Cs we have for Advance fares are closer to the T&Cs of the Virgin Value tickets than the tickets that went before.
 

MikeWh

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but to ask what time the next train is or what platform the train to X goes from isn't likely to land you with a court summons.
That might depend on whether you show the ticket or not. There have been a number of threads here where people got on the wrong train with an advance ticket because they asked the 'wrong' or incomplete question.
 

Tibbs

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I get that, but what I mean is that you could get bad advice from anyone - whether it's someone working for the same TOC you're using or not. Yes, that's a risk and there are many threads on here about these things.

However, my point was that you're unlikely to get incorrect advice just because someone works for another operator. And certainly not for routine questions. What sort of questions would you be likely to ask? Or, more important, what sort of questions were you asking?

If it's about the validity of a series of tickets you've got to save money, then I'd be wary of the advice given for sure - but to ask what time the next train is or what platform the train to X goes from isn't likely to land you with a court summons.
If I had received bad advice from an employee of the TOC I was travelling on I would feel in a much stronger position to defend myself than had I relied on info from someone not employed by said TOC.
 
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RJ

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In my opinion, tickets are as complex as you make them. Buy a ticket from your origin to destination and more often than not, the restriction is very easy to follow.
 

Tibbs

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In my opinion, tickets are as complex as you make them. Buy a ticket from your origin to destination and more often than not, the restriction is very easy to follow.
But then again I'm not sure you're best placed to make a judgement about how easy or difficult it is. With your level of knowledge, you must understand ticketing betten than what 99% of the travelling public?

It's amazing the number of people who get turned away at the Euston gateline for trying to travel during the evening peak with an offpeak ticket. The issue I guess is around the lack of consistency between routes.
 

bb21

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You've made so many wrong assumptions in this post it's almost amusing.
I can understand your reservations in the face of the complexity of ticketing arrangements on the railway network. Nevertheless simply because your assumptions, preferences and understanding are different from GadgetMan's does not mean that his arguments are wrong or invalid.
 

Tibbs

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I can understand your reservations in the face of the complexity of ticketing arrangements on the railway network. Nevertheless simply because your assumptions, preferences and understanding are different from GadgetMan's does not mean that his arguments are wrong or invalid.
He made assumptions about my opinions and my views about railway (dis)unity. Since I'm me I feel I'm the best person to confirm or deny my own opinions.

Please let me know if you feel someone else is better placed than me to know my own mind.
 

GadgetMan

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He made assumptions about my opinions and my views about railway (dis)unity. Since I'm me I feel I'm the best person to confirm or deny my own opinions.

Please let me know if you feel someone else is better placed than me to know my own mind.
It wasn't the way it was meant to read however I admit I could have worded the post better. Putting words into your mouth was not my intention, apologies if it comes across otherwise.

However the point still stands, regardless of what train ticket you hold, you are entitled to seek assistance from any member of railway staff. If you choose to overcomplicate things by searching for particular uniforms when you need info then that it is your choice and you are perfectly entitled to continue to do so.

Similarly any member of railway staff is entitled to ask to inspect your ticket while on railway premises should they have reason/authority to do so.
 
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