• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Who makes Britain's rails?

Status
Not open for further replies.

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,845
Location
St Neots
SNCF must be rather worried that in the event of the UK leaving the EU it will all turn to 113A or even Bullhead. I wonder what the French is for "Can I have several thousand AS1 chairs please Mr Storeman?"

*Gallic shrug*
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Daniel Pyke

Member
Joined
14 Feb 2014
Messages
46
Location
Gainsborough
It's two questions really.
1) Where is the steel made that is used to make Network Rail's rail products?
2) Where are the rails made?
I know that (2) used to be Corus Workington until closure then I believe it went to Scunthorpe.
It would be easy for the Government instruct its Agencies to specify UK manufacture in its contracts - but it never does.

I guess in answer to the thread title question - I do! (Well sort of).


Network rails answer is probably better than mine though
https://twitter.com/networkrailPR/status/717274316669337600
CfRFL-hW8AAho-x.jpg


The vast majority of Network rails are produced in the uk here in sunny Scunthorpe, both the steel and the rails themselves.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I can't imagine SNCF buying a significant percentage of their rails from abroad...

Yes they do. As do TfL in the UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think the Scunthorpe steel for France is a large one-off contract for the Bordeaux LGV.
Hayange probably have their own source for regular SNCF renewals.

Hayange source their steel from Scunthorpe. It travels there by train very regularly.
 
Last edited:

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,182
Location
Fenny Stratford
a good bit of politics to say the rail made at Hayange is French. It is, of course, but the base steel comes from England ;)
 

rf_ioliver

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
854
I guess there's a logical continuation to this thread, which is, from where is the iron ore and other elements sourced from?

t.

Ian
 

Stewart2887

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2013
Messages
104
Interstingly and slightly off topic the UK exports a huge amount of scrap to the far east. I know Southampton and Newport have large operations and I'm willing to bet there are many other (rail connected) sites too. If there is a welcome revision of this trend to divert this and produce more new steel from scrap then this should provide some railfreight business. Every town produces scrap metal - and scrap is ideal for rail.

I'm sure I read elsewhere that scrap is not used for rail production. Would make sense quality-wise. Fine for razor blades or girders, but rails have to be of good quality...
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,094
Location
Reading
Stars. :)

[Any object] = Hydrogen + Time

Love it!

Just to add a bit - specifically all the elements with higher atomic numbers than iron can only be formed in super novae. Even here the conditions are only right for 5 minutes or so...

Joni Mitchell sang "We are stardust...", she was dead right.
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,558
I'm sure I read elsewhere that scrap is not used for rail production. Would make sense quality-wise. Fine for razor blades or girders, but rails have to be of good quality...

I don't think there is anything wrong with scrap which has been through a complete melt process. What isn't good is re-roll where steel is heated up and then rolled out again a different section.
 

Stewart2887

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2013
Messages
104
I don't think there is anything wrong with scrap which has been through a complete melt process. What isn't good is re-roll where steel is heated up and then rolled out again a different section.

You may well be right-I'm no metallurgist. But steel produced for a 1990 Nissan Micra or a Heinz soup tin will have different specifications purity-wise. Someone will be along soon with an expert answer! I love the tangents these threads go off on!
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,072
I don't think there is anything wrong with scrap which has been through a complete melt process. What isn't good is re-roll where steel is heated up and then rolled out again a different section.

Rail steel is made and used in such enormous quantities that I suspect that you have no choice but to start with "pure" steel.

"Re-melting" to me means putting scrap (cast iron and steel) into an electric-arc furnace and hoping that the final metal is OK for the use you plan for it. I have seen scrap steel re-melted and silicon and manganese added afterwards, but it was only small batches, like 20 tons or so... I have also seen cast iron recycled in small foundries
which don't presume to call their products "steel."

Some scrap goes into blast furnaces, but their main inputs are iron ore, limestone and coke. The unwanted elements (everything except iron and carbon) come out in the slag and most of the carbon is then blown off in the steel-making process. You then add the alloying elements back in...

I think that razor blades are probably one of the highest-quality uses of steel and therefore probably made from "fresh" so that there are no unwanted alloying elements to b***er up the composition.

I read that rail steel is/was so good (and even now is one of the most tightly specified types of steel) that most N American bed-frames were made of re-rolled railway rail steel. You slit the head and foot off the web and then put each bit through a rolling mill to make what you want out of it. There's no point wasting energy re-melting something that is probably better than most of the output of the recycling industry!

Update/correction: Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect...tages_of_electric_arc_furnace_for_steelmaking says that electric arc furnaces are used for steel making, with oxygen lances through the lid to take out the unwanted elements, but I would still imagine that for run-of-the-mill steel rail production you have to have a Scunthorpe-scale operation.
 
Last edited:

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Its not quite like that, even for 'fresh' steel nowadays you melt down about 20-40% old scrap steel then add fresh ore and trace elements to it to get the desired chemical makeup. You don't need to physically take a sample to test you can do it simply by checking the reflection of light.
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,558
Rail steel is made and used in such enormous quantities that I suspect that you have no choice but to start with "pure" steel.
<SNIP>

Update/correction: Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elect...tages_of_electric_arc_furnace_for_steelmaking says that electric arc furnaces are used for steel making, with oxygen lances through the lid to take out the unwanted elements, but I would still imagine that for run-of-the-mill steel rail production you have to have a Scunthorpe-scale operation.

To flesh things out a little. Celsa Steel are the largest producers of steel from scrap using electric arc in the UK. They turn out 1,2 million tonnes of steel pa.

Scunthorpe rolls under half a million tonnes of rail pa.

IF electric arc steel is good enough, Celsa could supply Scunthorpe more than twice over. I have no idea if electric arc steel is good enough for rail.
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
For those who are interested, Tata have a guide about the rails that they produce, including details of the composition on the penultimate page, from which someone might be able to figure out if scrap can and does go in
 

Daniel Pyke

Member
Joined
14 Feb 2014
Messages
46
Location
Gainsborough
Rail can be made from 100% recycled steel via the electric arc furnace (EAF) route. Indeed this is pretty much the only way in the USA that they make rails.

However in Europe no-one (to my knowledge) currently takes this approach as you end up with lots of undesirable elements in the steel (Called residual elements e.g., copper and tin). The European rail specification has quite tight limits on these residual elements and so it is currently impractical to make rail steel to the European specification via this route. However some manufacturers are looking at employing this route for future rail production. I don't pretend to be expert enough to know if this is likely to happen though. You'd need to ensure scrap is pretty pure to go down this route I'd have thought.

There is some recycled steel in all european rails though as steel is recycled to help cool the BOS (Basic Oxygen Steelmaking) route. All scrap is recycled internally via this route to re-melt it. Obviously our own internal scrap is much more pure than commercial scrap (crushed cars etc), as we know exactly what is in it.

The Tata Steel brochure linked is obviously now out of date as we have become British Steel, but the compositions are still valid. What isn't listed on there is the residual element specifications.

You need good steel to make good rails. Getting good steel from scrap is probably more challenging than getting it from raw materials.

More info on the rail production process is in a post I have written here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=129599
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Its not quite like that, even for 'fresh' steel nowadays you melt down about 20-40% old scrap steel then add fresh ore and trace elements to it to get the desired chemical makeup. You don't need to physically take a sample to test you can do it simply by checking the reflection of light.

You do need to take physical samples. It's part of the specification.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
Post mixing as qualative proof. You don't need to physically sample when mixing.
 
Last edited:

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
As a once upon a time metallurgist...

Copper, Tin, Antimony and Arsenic have lower oxygen affinities that Iron so they can't be removed by the conventional Pyrometallurgy methods e.g. Conventional Slag and Basic Oxygen Process.

Copper and Tin level in scrap (especially post consumer scrap) are rising due to the amount of electronics in goods so it is harder to use scrap in some applications (Copper content can be good for some steel application such as reinforcing bar and stainless).

Low copper steels for critical application can be produced e.g. rail wheels and axles* if you are very careful about careful scrap segregation and selection
*e.g. Lucchini in Italy use EAF with carefully selected scrap (e.g. post factory rather than post consumer) so off cuts of galvanised sheet (air ducts and building cladding off cuts).
Italian steel making in general has used EAF and scrap for a very long time.

Several methods have been used for Copper etc. removal in the molten state but all are difficult...
 
Last edited:

Daniel Pyke

Member
Joined
14 Feb 2014
Messages
46
Location
Gainsborough
As a once upon a time metallurgist...

Copper, Tin, Antimony and Arsenic have lower oxygen affinities that Iron so they can't be removed by the conventional Pyrometallurgy methods e.g. Conventional Slag and Basic Oxygen Process.

Copper and Tin level in scrap (especially post consumer scrap) are rising due to the amount of electronics in goods so it is harder to use scrap in some applications (Copper content can be good for some steel application such as reinforcing bar and stainless).

Low copper steels for critical application can be produced e.g. rail wheels and axles* if you are very careful about careful scrap segregation and selection
*e.g. Lucchini in Italy use EAF with carefully selected scrap (e.g. post factory rather than post consumer) so off cuts of galvanised sheet (air ducts and building cladding off cuts).
Italian steel making in general has used EAF and scrap for a very long time.

Several methods have been used for Copper etc. removal in the molten state but all are difficult...

Exactly right on the metallurgy stuff. High residuals are bad for many properties and so limited in the European rail specification.

Lucchini used BOS steel making until very recently (last year or so - at least for their rails). They have declared they are building EAF (Electric Arc Furnace) now instead to replace the now defunct blast furnaces which is due to start in a year or so I think. I'm not sure if Lucchini use EAF for other types of product though currently. Tata Steel use EAF for their speciality steels business in Rotherham currently.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
Exactly right on the metallurgy stuff. High residuals are bad for many properties and so limited in the European rail specification.

Lucchini used BOS steel making until very recently (last year or so - at least for their rails). They have declared they are building EAF (Electric Arc Furnace) now instead to replace the now defunct blast furnaces which is due to start in a year or so I think. I'm not sure if Lucchini use EAF for other types of product though currently. Tata Steel use EAF for their speciality steels business in Rotherham currently.
Oops was talking about Lucchini RS (still family owned that makes wheels and axles) not the bit they sold to Severstal that makes long products.

Have seen with mk1 eyeball (Wheel and axle factory at Lovere) that they use recycled & EAF for other products (e.g. not rail) about 5 years ago! Even saw what scrap was arriving in the lorries;)

Speciality - It just doesn't make sense not to use EAF...
 
Last edited:

Daniel Pyke

Member
Joined
14 Feb 2014
Messages
46
Location
Gainsborough
Oops was talking about Lucchini RS (still family owned that makes wheels and axles) not the bit they sold to Severstal that makes long products.

Have seen with mk1 eyeball (Wheel and axle factory at Lovere) that they use recycled & EAF for other products (e.g. not rail) about 5 years ago! Even saw what scrap was arriving in the lorries;)

Speciality - It just doesn't make sense not to use EAF...

Yeah that makes sense as there tends to be much more alloy content in wheel steels.

Aferpi is the new name for Lucchini long products I think. It'll be interesting to see how they fair implementing EAF.
 

175mph

On Moderation
Joined
25 Jan 2016
Messages
661
I have an uncle who works in the rail making part of the Scunthorpe steelworks. He is naturally worried the government will give the steel making contract to a foreign steel making company instead of British Steel.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
I have an uncle who works in the rail making part of the Scunthorpe steelworks. He is naturally worried the government will give the steel making contract to a foreign steel making company instead of British Steel.

Why? If anything the weak pound would make Scunthorpe even more competitive against overseas competitors.
 

175mph

On Moderation
Joined
25 Jan 2016
Messages
661
Why? If anything the weak pound would make Scunthorpe even more competitive against overseas competitors.

Because in 2015, David Cameron gave a contract to a Swedish steel making company, thus forcing Scunthorpe's plate mill to be mothballed! <(
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,555
Location
Mold, Clwyd
The Scunthorpe rail facility is now owned by Greybull Investments, and is branded British Steel (was part of Tata Steel).
As well as rail for the UK, it made the base steel for the TGV lines in France which have just opened (exported to Hayange for final processing).
HMG cannot direct that all steel must come from UK plants, not even after Brexit.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,182
Location
Fenny Stratford
I have an uncle who works in the rail making part of the Scunthorpe steelworks. He is naturally worried the government will give the steel making contract to a foreign steel making company instead of British Steel.

it isnt in the governments gift to "give" anyone a steel making contract. There will be a competitive tender.

Consider who else could supply this rail especially after brexit and all the complications this will bring.
 

mpthomson

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2016
Messages
948
it isnt in the governments gift to "give" anyone a steel making contract. There will be a competitive tender.

Consider who else could supply this rail especially after brexit and all the complications this will bring.


And, to add to the above, David Cameron wouldn't have given anything to anyone, as he won't have been involved in the slightest with any negotiations, no politician will.

Under EU competition rulings he who provides the best value tender gets the work, wherever in the EU they are.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top