Who should I delay repay request?

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by cholsey-choose, 24 Sep 2018.

  1. cholsey-choose

    cholsey-choose Member

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    Hi all,

    I was on a 2015 train from Leeds to KGX the other night, intending to connect to arrive in Cholsey at 23:40 or so. I had 3 tickets: a split advance ticket from Leeds to KGX, and the return portion of a ticket from London U1 to Cholsey, bought at a GWR ticket machine.

    Leeds-KGX was 70 minutes late, and the LNER people put us in taxis. (They told me not to go to Paddington.) Arrived home to Oxfordshire at 2:15am. (Had to wait over an hour for a taxi at King's Cross.)

    Just a quick question -- who should I submit a delay repay claim to -- both?

    Thanks
     
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  3. cuccir

    cuccir Established Member

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    You submit to the company on whose service you were delayed, in this case, LNER.
     
  4. Fawkes Cat

    Fawkes Cat Member

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    LNER. It was their train that was late, so it's their responsibility.

    But you might want to note that (taking today, a weekday, as an example) NRE doesn't offer a journey leaving Leeds at 2015 and getting to Cholsey at 2340. A 1945 departure from Leeds is booked to get you to Cholsey at 0001, while 2045 will get you there at 0416. So I suspect you were planning to cross London a lot faster than NRE allows. If I'm right on that, then the chances are that your planned journey was not one that the railways guarantee to do. So a delay repay claim for Leeds to Cholsey will fail, although it seems to me that a Leeds to London claim might work.

    (Edited because it turns out the actual journey wasn't a weekday, and wasn't booked to get to Cholsey at 2340. I must not make assumptions. I must not make assumptions. I must not (etc.))
     
    Last edited: 24 Sep 2018
  5. cholsey-choose

    cholsey-choose Member

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    Great, thank you -- I suspected that might be the case! I find that NRE is very pessimistic about how long it takes to get across London on some routes (eg, a quick hop on the H&C line).

    So I definitely don't have grounds for delay repay on the last section of my journey. I'm also glad they advised me not to travel to Paddington, where GWR might have told me to get lost!

    If they had checked tickets and taken a hardline stance, they could have saved themselves an expensive taxi ride. Kind of glad they didn't!

    Now I'm wondering if I really should delay repay to KGX, what do you think? My journey as a whole (to Cholsey) was clearly not delayed beyond the NRE prediction of 4am. On the other hand, my ticketed advance train from Leeds to KGX was delayed by 70 minutes, and I did get home over 3 hours later than I would have...
     
  6. cuccir

    cuccir Established Member

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    Cholsey-choose - I'm a little confused by your itinerary, can you give us the full details of what you intended to do and when!?

    RealTimeTrains shows a 20:15 from Leeds on a Saturday only but no other day of the week.

    There's nothing that would match with a 23:40 arrival. However, with the cross-London connection time included, the 20:15 from Leeds on a Saturday allows for an arrival time into Cholsey at 00:43 - which isn't the 23:40 you've told us but is comfortably before your actual arrival time, leaving you by that calculation 92 minutes late on the overall journey.
     
  7. cholsey-choose

    cholsey-choose Member

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    Thanks for this -- I should have thought more carefully before responding. It was Saturday night so that confused things I think.

    I had a split ticket on the advance service from Leeds to KGX (depart 20:15) and then the return portion of an off-peak return from U1 to Cholsey. Here is the NRE itinerary for sat night:


    20:15 Leeds [LDS]
    9 [​IMG] London Kings Cross [KGX]
    22:37 5 2h 22m

    London North Eastern Railway service from Leeds to London Kings Cross show calling points

    Tube 22:52 London Kings Cross [KGX]
    [​IMG] London Paddington [PAD]
    23:12
    0h 20m


    Train 23:33 London Paddington [PAD]
    11 [​IMG] Reading [RDG]
    00:12 12 0h 39m
    Great Western Railway service from London Paddington to Oxford show calling points
    Train 00:23 Reading [RDG]
    12 [​IMG] Cholsey [CHO]
    00:43 3 0h 20m

    (For some reason I thought there was a service that leaves PADD to get me back to Cholsey at 23:40 or thereabouts, but it looks like I was wrong about that.)

    Train to KGX was delayed by 70 min, arrived at about 23:45, and then we waited for an hour (!) for taxis, before arriving in Cholsey at about 02:15.

    Thanks
     
  8. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Not really pessimistic, but they have to take the average times - including peak times when it might take longer.
     
  9. cholsey-choose

    cholsey-choose Member

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    Poor choice of words on my part -- what I mean is something more like it usually takes me less time than it predicts, but I am fairly young and know London well. I should say I agree that being conservative is the right strategy!
     
  10. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    In my view, there is no reason not to claim for the portion to London King's Cross. NRCoT 14.1 gives you the right to have your travel considered as one journey despite using multiple tickets. It is a right and not an obligation, and thus in my view you can construe "journey" however you like, provided it starts and ends at a point either where you start your journey, where you end it, or where you change from one ticket to the next.

    LNER (from their VTEC roots) are notoriously poor at compensating for split tickets (especially when several operators' operator-specific Advances are involved) thus I see nothing wrong with your claim - you did, after all, arrive at King's Cross severely delayed.
     
  11. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Yes, it is a right, and as long as all the connections are valid you can claim for a disrupted journey.

    If they are not then you can't.
     
  12. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Yes, exactly. Hence why OP couldn't claim compensation for a journey to Cholsey (or if they did, they could only claim against an arrival time of 00:43), but they definitely could to Kings Cross as an intermediate termination of their journey.
     
  13. cuccir

    cuccir Established Member

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    Given your itinerary, you could claim against the whole journey from LNER - you were a shade over 90 minutes late into Cholsey.
     
  14. cholsey-choose

    cholsey-choose Member

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    Brilliant, thanks all. I'll submit it today.
     
  15. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    It’s LNER’s policy not to pay delay repay on split tickets so claiming for the delayed incurred to Kings Cross would be fine by them.

    LNER can’t have it both ways.
     
  16. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    It's their policy not to pay willingly or initially, but follow ups at a higher level have achieved success in many cases (and in any case the legal position is that they must pay out). If anyone is having difficulties with LNER paying out on split tickets they should post on the D&P section.
     
  17. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I'm not sure that is their policy; knowledgeable members of LNER staff expressed surprise at the release of such a 'policy'.

    Furthermore, several forum members have escalated claims rejected on the basis of this 'policy' to Mike Ross. All such escalations that I am aware of have resulted in the full amount of Delay Repay for the whole journey being paid.
     
  18. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    As I posted in another thread, I mentioned the importance of using language that asserts your rights to use a combination of tickets,, and makes it clear what journey you were making and tickets you were using eg.:
    If the claim is rejected, go back to Customer Services.

    Sample follow-up letter:
    If that fails, write a nice letter to Mike Ross.

    If anyone in such a position booked with Trainsplit/Raileasy, then I know Nick/Mike will be happy to help escalate it (contact me and I will pass it on).
     
    Last edited: 25 Sep 2018
  19. cholsey-choose

    cholsey-choose Member

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    Great, thanks. They've sent me a very nice email saying they accept my claim, but studiously avoid any details! I'll have to wait for it to arrive.
     
  20. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Of course, however I believe that the passenger waived the right to claim they were making more than one journey when they missed their connection but accepted the railway's offer of replacement transport to get them to the destination on the final ticket. This is offered to the destination of the journey you are making, thus it must be one journey (see NRCoT 28.2).

    It would be different if the latter ticket(s) were walk-ups and thus valid on later trains individually, and the passenger was sufficiently delayed that missed their intended connection, but still made a train which the later ticket was valid on. In which case, you aren't relying on 14.1 to connect the tickets.
     
    Last edited: 3 Oct 2018
  21. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    Absolutely. Having ones cake and eating it is not something I agree with, not for the passenger or the TOC.

    You define a journey yourself, you cannot then change what you considered a journey in order to maximise delay repay. In this scenario all is well, your journey was defined by you as Leeds to Cholsey and LNER accepted this was the case as they provided alternative transport for you. LNER must pay out on the full journey but on the other hand if the situation were different it would in my opinion be improper of you to claim for just the Leeds to London part should it have become apparent that there was financial benefit to doing so (for example had you not left the minimum cross London transfer time).
     
  22. cholsey-choose

    cholsey-choose Member

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    To my very pleasant surprise, I received a cheque today for the whole amount! Both of my single split tickets from Leeds to King's Cross, and half the value of the return from Cholsey to London.

    Annoyingly, there is no statement or anything, just a cheque, so I had to double check by looking up the original ticket prices.

    But I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth! Thanks for your help all.
     

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