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Who's in the wrong?

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Domh245

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At the end of the day, the safety of the train is the guard's responsibility. It is his call as to what happens, so what he is doing is entirely justified. It is arguably a unnecessary as he could have let Ms. Moaner on through the local door, but again that is his call. It is also difficult to judge without knowing the context.

Either way, I suspect this is gonna be divisive!
 

IKB

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It's only possible to comment on what happens in the video and not what happened before the camera started rolling...so perhaps some context is missing.

Was it just the one lady wanting to get on, or were there ten other people stood behind her? Did the platform staff promise something it wasn't in his gift to deliver?

Based on the video alone, two members of railway staff having an argument on the platform does not look professional.

Yes, the train manager has responsibility for the train. Safety comes first. But that does not preclude him from allowing one or two passengers on at the local door. He has the discretion to do so if he wishes.

Passengers pay ALOT of money to travel these days, so I'd like to think I would be accommodating where possible, whilst baring in mind official protocols/professional responsibilities. A lot depends on the situation at the time....20 late comers at Watford Junction, or 1 at Penrith?
 
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najaB

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I don't know who was right, but just wanted to comment on this:
Passengers pay ALOT of money to travel these days...
Doesn't matter how much they pay, their safety is the number one priority.

There's a right way to do things and that's the way it should be done. If you start making exceptions it's the start of a slippery slope.
 

IKB

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Doesn't matter how much they pay, their safety is the number one priority.

There's a right way to do things and that's the way it should be done. If you start making exceptions it's the start of a slippery slope.

I was waiting for the first person to dig me out on that remark, well done :roll:

That's precisely why I prefaced the comment by saying that safety comes first and followed it making reference to official protocols. Perhaps you didn't actually read what I wrote.

My point about the cost of the fare was to highlight the default "computer says no" automatic response that passengers get from some railway staff. We should be amenable and accommodating where possible, if it is safe to do so. That could mean letting on a passenger at a local door, depending on the circumstances. Not every scenario is black and white. If that was my mother on the platform I'd hope the staff member would use their professional judgement - is it safer to let her on at the local door or let her freeze on the platform for the next service, whenever that may be.
 
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SPADTrap

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I was waiting for the first person to dig me out on that remark, well done :roll:

That's precisely why I prefaced the comment by saying that safety comes first and followed it making reference to official protocols. Perhaps you didn't actually read what I wrote.

My point about the cost of the fare was to highlight the default "computer says no" automatic response that passengers get from some railway staff. We should be amenable and accommodating where possible, if it is safe to do so. That could mean letting on a passenger at a local door, depending on the circumstances. Not every scenario is black and white. If that was my mother on the platform I'd hope the staff member would use their professional judgement - is it safer to let her on at the local door or let her freeze on the platform for the next service, whenever that may be.

Well intentioned but policy and procedure is just that. Follow to the letter. If your company forbids passenger use of the local door then what are you to do? Not bend it that's for sure.
 

cjmillsnun

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Technically the TM is in the right, however he spent more time arguing the toss than it would've taken to let a few on.

If he was going to say no, he should've just done so, shut his local door and given two bells to the driver.
 

SPADTrap

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Technically the TM is in the right, however he spent more time arguing the toss than it would've taken to let a few on.

If he was going to say no, he should've just done so, shut his local door and given two bells to the driver.

That's the point isn't it? He can't do that without the second tip from the dispatcher? I guess the dispatcher held off from this to allow the passenger to walk to the local door which is what got his back up.
 

cjmillsnun

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That's the point isn't it? He can't do that without the second tip from the dispatcher? I guess the dispatcher held off from this to allow the passenger to walk to the local door which is what got his back up.

Good point, however a simple no, I'm sorry should've got the dispatcher to give the tip.
 

najaB

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I was waiting for the first person to dig me out on that remark, well done :roll:
Well, it was a remark that needed to be called out. Something is either safe or it isn't. It is either allowed or it is not. The amount passengers pay shouldn't come into it at all.
 

IKB

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Well, it was a remark that needed to be called out. Something is either safe or it isn't. It is either allowed or it is not. The amount passengers pay shouldn't come into it at all.

Oh please, spare me the lecture...I already stated from the outset that safety comes first, as does protocol pertaining to that company.

My comment about the cost of the fare was in relation to the quality of service provided - that staff should be accommodating where possible if the rules allow it. If they don't, explain why not, rather than just being completely obstinate. There is nothing revolutionary or controversial in that statement.
 

northernchris

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Based on the video alone, two members of railway staff having an argument on the platform does not look professional.

Quite. Reminds me of a time at Leeds the driver and guard of a XC were having an argument. From what I remember the despatcher had call the signaller to put the signal back to red as the train was going nowhere soon.

As others have said there is no context to the video, however if you take it at face value it appears as though the guard is rather officious and his conduct does not represent XC in a positive light.
 

455driver

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Oh please, spare me the lecture...I already stated from the outset that safety comes first, as does protocol pertaining to that company.

My comment about the cost of the fare was in relation to the quality of service provided - that staff should be accommodating where possible if the rules allow it. If they don't, explain why not, rather than just being completely obstinate. There is nothing revolutionary or controversial in that statement.

Fair enough, once the dispatch procedure has started no passenger is allowed to board, you want it, you got it! :roll:

That also finishes that other thread off as well.
 
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Whilst trying to maintain an adult approach to this, as a guard (and this may not be exactly to the rules) I would expect the dispatcher to be aware of the process and to continue the dispatch procedure had it been started, I would expect on a train of voyager length that I would be the only one who would determine whether or not to reopen the doors or permit boarding (see my contribution to "reopening doors" for further info.)

All that said, given the local door is not a cab door (not 100% on voyagers so stand to be corrected) I would see no problem in letting them on and would always wish to completely avoid any public altercation with another staff member. Mention it later quietly, mention it another time, alert their manager if that was necessary yes but never have a public slanging match.

More context would be great but we're not going to get it, from what the videos show I would have liked for the TM to let them board, but there is quite clearly a lot more going on.
 

MikeWh

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Oh do grow up. You're deliberately twisting and trying to be smart...I really can't be bothered.

For what it's worth, I'm very pleased to see some members of rail staff acknowledging how much passengers pay for the priviledge of travelling these days. I think the railways would be a much better place if a few more had that in mind.

Frankly, the attitudes of some people on here are beginning to worry me somewhat. If I've read things right, there is a suggestion going round that someone who pays £10,000 up front for an annual season ticket has no right to expect redress if the ticket is borrowed without permission and thus withdrawn. If that is even 1% true then I fail to see why anyone would risk parting with such sums.
 

theironroad

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For what it's worth, I'm very pleased to see some members of rail staff acknowledging how much passengers pay for the priviledge of travelling these days. I think the railways would be a much better place if a few more had that in mind.

Frankly, the attitudes of some people on here are beginning to worry me somewhat. If I've read things right, there is a suggestion going round that someone who pays £10,000 up front for an annual season ticket has no right to expect redress if the ticket is borrowed without permission and thus withdrawn. If that is even 1% true then I fail to see why anyone would risk parting with such sums.

I'm not sure what relevance your post has apart form the ticket price. This thread is about an operational issue not stolen tickets. Tickets are not transferable and if your ticket was taken from you (stolen) and used against your knowledge then you should report it to the issuing company and police as theft.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With regards the original thread, it seems that something was going on before the camera rolled, but and this is a very superficial reading, and it's only judging by accents, it seems a brum TM is falling out with a West country station platform supervisor. While neither come out glowing, it seems to boil down to whether the female, unseen but heard, passenger is allowed to board after the first 'tip' has been given, namley to close the train's doors and the second 'tip' aka the 'train safety check' to allow the tm to close his locxal door and give the driver the 'ready to start' signal.

Right now, on the basis of partial video, my sympathy lies with the platform guy and passenger........
 
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Phil.

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Have the rules of dispatch been changed? A platform person giving a Guard the "tip" - as has been quaintly described - was indicating that platform duties are complete and the train doors may be closed and the train started. It was always advice rather than an order or has that been changed?
 

theironroad

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Have the rules of dispatch been changed? A platform person giving a Guard the "tip" - as has been quaintly described - was indicating that platform duties are complete and the train doors may be closed and the train started. It was always advice rather than an order or has that been changed?

However quaint, it works...lol

Various rules, but if guard closes door and platform staff available to dispatch, then first tip is to close doors, then platform staff to check that nothing trapped in doors etc,then second tip to guard to say the 'train safety check' is complete and the guard can continue with their dispatch to driver.

Unfortunately, clothing, hands etc being trapped in closed doors and people being dragged along platforms has meant the pti 'platform train interface' :) process has had to be tightened.
 

MichaelAMW

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Atrocious behaviour from the TM. Complete failure to remember it's a service his company is providing. If he had time to argue the toss with the guy on the platform and exert his little bit of power and authority then he had time to let people on. I wouldn't for one moment suggest safety be compromised but this was nothing about safety, it was about his having the last word.
 

Clip

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Frankly, the attitudes of some people on here are beginning to worry me somewhat. If I've read things right, there is a suggestion going round that someone who pays £10,000 up front for an annual season ticket has no right to expect redress if the ticket is borrowed without permission and thus withdrawn. If that is even 1% true then I fail to see why anyone would risk parting with such sums.


Really? Who?
 

yorkie

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As others have said there is no context to the video, however if you take it at face value it appears as though the guard is rather officious and his conduct does not represent XC in a positive light.
Unfortunately I have encountered some XC guards who behave like this, and the company doesn't seem to do enough to weed them out. It is a minority, who are obnoxious, but they certainly do exist. They have no place whatsoever in a customer-facing role and give the industry a bad name. It's really quite a strange one as, on the other end of the scale, some XC TMs are absolutely superb at customer service and very professional. The gulf between the best and the worst XC TMs is staggering.
 

stevescan

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Personally i do not think the member of the platform staff should have put the TM in that position, he should have been aware of the procedure and left the decision to the TM, it should never have got the point of a slanging match.
 

Clip

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Unfortunately I have encountered some XC guards who behave like this, and the company doesn't seem to do enough to weed them out. It is a minority, who are obnoxious, but they certainly do exist. They have no place whatsoever in a customer-facing role and give the industry a bad name. It's really quite a strange one as some XC TMs are absolutely superb at customer service and very professional. The gulf between the best and the worst XC TMs is staggering.

You generally get this in most if not all CS facing roles... In fact why should I bother interacting with you its never good.
 
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Jonfun

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I don't know what the TM is supposed to have said or done, but the fact of the matter is that the platform staff shouldn't have given the tip if folk were still boarding. Yes, officially, the guard should probably formally report a dispatch irregularity, the dispatcher be pulled off the job, be retrained and get a blot on their safety record, but quite often on the railways it's considered more effective to tell someone they've messed up to their face, rather than going behind their back. Whether it actually is more effective is a matter for another discussion.
 

Bodiddly

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Tea without biscuits anyone? Seriously though, when our colleague Martin Zee is going through his own personal hell at the moment, is it any wonder staff get a bit edgy about dispatch? Common sense has been obliterated by rules and regulations!
 

Clip

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Tea without biscuits anyone? Seriously though, when our colleague Martin Zee is going through his own personal hell at the moment, is it any wonder staff get a bit edgy about dispatch? Common sense has been obliterated by rules and regulations!

Or by pax with a gob and a sense of righteous indignation that the world owes them something.
 

Urban Gateline

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I don't know what the TM is supposed to have said or done, but the fact of the matter is that the platform staff shouldn't have given the tip if folk were still boarding.

At busy stations where there is a constant stream of people the Dispatcher does end up giving the first tip when people are still boarding otherwise the Train will never get away! Though in this case it could be that the lady in question was late to the Platform and came shooting out the waiting room or steps/lift after the Train doors had already closed. (not saying this is what did happen but it is a possibility as we aren't given the full facts)

I dispatch Voyagers frequently and never entertain anyone boarding after the doors are closed and only the TM's door is still open, I will always tell them to stand clear and/or say it's too late sorry and give the second tip to the Guard. Like I've said to many passengers we don't hold a Train for anyone no matter their status! ;)
 
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