Why ✠and ✝ and not a sidewards ϕ?

[whhistle]

* I'm sure there was a symbol that is essentially: ϕ but turned 45 degrees - a circle with a line horizontally through it.
However I can't find it now and it's not in the standard ALT codes.

Depending on what screen you're on, the ϕ symbol may appear different.

Why when purchasing tickets that include Underground travel is it not a small "Undergound" sign?
I get in the olden days the need to use a specific symbol that could be coded/read by any computer system, but surely the ticket printers can be coded to print a small Underground sign?

I know it's not a huge deal but why specifically the types of cross instead of anything else (like a playing card symbol)?

 

[PeterC]

I suspect that the choice of symbols was originally determined by the characters available on mechanical print heads. Going forward anything non standard would require special fonts to be installed across multiple machines from multiple suppliers.

<pedant>Before anybody posts to correct me I am using the word "font" in the sense used in IT, I do know the technical difference between a font and a typeface</pedant>

 

[ComUtoR]

Because of the way those symbols are displayed, they do not appear on my phone. One is a big blue box and the other a bright pink one. Viewing this on my laptop shows the first one as an 'Iron Cross' and the second a 'Crucifix'

 

[Leo1961]

⦵ seems but a small price to ask...

 

[Paul Kelly]

I know it's not a huge deal but why specifically the types of cross instead of anything else (like a playing card symbol)?

Well I always assumed it was a cross because a cross-London journey was included?

 

[AndrewE]

I suspect that the choice of symbols was originally determined by the characters available on mechanical print heads. Going forward anything non standard would require special fonts to be installed across multiple machines from multiple suppliers.

I think it goes a lot further back than that and is probably down to the characters that were available in moveable-type typesetting in Victorian times. Daggers and "double daggers" have been in all the Working timetables and Bradshaws that I have seen (besides iron crosses etc.)

 

[hwl]

* I'm sure there was a symbol that is essentially: ϕ but turned 45 degrees - a circle with a line horizontally through it.
However I can't find it now and it's not in the standard ALT codes.

Depending on what screen you're on, the ϕ symbol may appear different.

Why when purchasing tickets that include Underground travel is it not a small "Undergound" sign?
I get in the olden days the need to use a specific symbol that could be coded/read by any computer system, but surely the ticket printers can be coded to print a small Underground sign?

I know it's not a huge deal but why specifically the types of cross instead of anything else (like a playing card symbol)?

everything coded for 1982 dot matrix printers with standard ASCII characters.
The circle with 45degree (NE-SW) line though it is the engineering drawing diameter symbol and isn't in the standard character set.
The Underground symbol is (or was) printed much larger and on the orange strip on travel cards (if front of "travelcard") to differentiate travelcards hence the need to differentiate limited use of LU from Travelcard use.

 

[jon0844]

⦵ seems but a small price to ask...

It should be quite easy for all printers to use that symbol today, but with paper tickets on their way out - slowly - it's probably not worth it.

 

[eastwestdivide]

⦵, or Unicode "CIRCLE WITH HORIZONTAL BAR" (U+29B5) was only added to the Unicode standard in 2002 according to
https://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/29b5/index.htm
so it wouldn't have been in any standard fonts before then, let alone mechanical print heads.

Daggers and double daggers have been in standard fonts (and in the so-called extended ASCII encodings such as Win-1252, MacRoman, albeit in different positions) since way before Unicode (which was 1991ish?).

 

[westv]

I suppose that's one of the things that makes these forums interesting. Topics cover such a vast range. From really helpful information during disruption (or similar) all the way to in depth discussions about the colour of tickets.

 

[cactustwirly]

But the LU symbol is printed onto travelcards, so the printers can actually print that symbol already!

 

[eastwestdivide]

I suppose that's one of the things that makes these things interesting. Topics cover such a vast range. From really helpful information during disruption (or similar) all the way to in depth discussions about the colour of tickets.

Why are they that colour orange then?
Don't answer that!
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/colours-of-tickets.20474/
https://www.essexlive.news/news/essex-news/rail-delivery-group-explains-exact-899829

 

[Wallsendmag]

It should be quite easy for all printers to use that symbol today, but with paper tickets on their way out - slowly - it's probably not worth it.

Are you willing to pay the TIS suppliers charges for a change that'll not add anything except a different symbol?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Just to muddy the waters, Ticket Issuing Systems did use "the roundel" in the past, but not in the "route" field. It was used as a separator between the machine number and National Location Code. If memory serves, it indicated that the TIS in question was capable of encoding the magstripe (so SPORTIS and Avantix tickets issued on paper roll tickets didn't have it).

You'll find a multitude of examples here in the ticket gallery.

 

[hwl]

But the LU symbol is printed onto travelcards, so the printers can actually print that symbol already!

Yes but in the bigger text area not in a smallest print one as is associated with travelcards not through ticketing via LU (which use daggers etc)

 

[jon0844]

Just to muddy the waters, Ticket Issuing Systems did use "the roundel" in the past, but not in the "route" field. It was used as a separator between the machine number and National Location Code. If memory serves, it indicated that the TIS in question was capable of encoding the magstripe (so SPORTIS and Avantix tickets issued on paper roll tickets didn't have it).

You'll find a multitude of examples here in the ticket gallery.

It's use for something else might prevent it being used for another purpose then.

 

[island]

Just to muddy the waters, Ticket Issuing Systems did use "the roundel" in the past, but not in the "route" field. It was used as a separator between the machine number and National Location Code. If memory serves, it indicated that the TIS in question was capable of encoding the magstripe (so SPORTIS and Avantix tickets issued on paper roll tickets didn't have it).

You'll find a multitude of examples here in the ticket gallery.

Yes – the character in question was the Greek letter theta.

 

[thedbdiboy]

The Maltese Cross was one of the symbols used in the Fares Manual and predates the modern (i.e. 30 year old) computer printed ticket. There were three symbols I recall being used in the fares data - the Maltese Cross indicated that the ticket was valid for cross-London transfer by LT services, an facility introduced in the early 80s when BR agreed with LRT on a lump sum payment to facilitate this and reduce demand at LT London Terminal booking offices. Other symbols were a dagger - I think that one was 'Local price only, not to be used when compiling through fares', and a double dagger, which I seem to recall indicated that a fare was reversable, i.e. could be used for exactly the same journey in the opposite direction. But it's all a bit hazy now at this distance since my booking office days.

 

[AndrewE]

The Maltese Cross was one of the symbols used in the Fares Manual and predates the modern (i.e. 30 year old) computer printed ticket.

As I said, I think they reflect the glyphs and sorts (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sort_(typesetting)) that were in use when tickets were printed by people taking bits of metal out of a rack and composing them in a form. The fact that they are in the facsimile 1938 Bradshaw's and other much older books that I have makes it pretty clear.

 

[Taunton]

The circle with 45degree (NE-SW) line though it is the engineering drawing diameter symbol and isn't in the standard character set.

It (ø) is actually a longstanding standard in the Linotype special character set, the definitive norm for traditional Hot Metal printing, and can be seen used extensively in old USA train timetables such as the Official Guide, which like others here have described used a range of standard printers' marks. UK timetable printers didn't seem to take to it so much. The Linotype set formed the basis of computer printing codes.

 

[reb0118]

....and a double dagger, which I seem to recall indicated that a fare was reversable, i.e. could be used for exactly the same journey in the opposite direction...

Was the reversible fares symbol not a diamond shape?

 

[thedbdiboy]

Was the reversible fares symbol not a diamond shape?

You could be right, in which case either the dagger or double dagger meant something else. It was a long time ago!

 

[tsr]

Was the reversible fares symbol not a diamond shape?

I believe it was.

 

[OwlMan]

I think the double dagger used to refer to fares that were local only (i.e. not to be used in calculations of other fares). A copy of a nfm page is attached

 

[Peter C]

Well I always assumed it was a cross because a cross-London journey was included?

The symbol for a cross-London journey is a sort of cross, according to one of my tickets.

 

[mallard]

If we want to use modern Unicode characters for uses like this, how about U+1F687 ("METRO") for a cross-London transfer?

We could also use U+1F68C ("BUS") for PLUSBUS (or bus destination) tickets, U+1F6F3 ("PASSENGER SHIP") for tickets that include passage by ferry and U+1F68A ("TRAM") for tickets that include tram services too...

 

[DarloRich]

I suspect the symbols chosen were:

• not in use at the time
• could be printed by the equipment of the time

What is the value in changing the symbol?

 

[whhistle]

What is the value in changing the symbol?

Making it a little clearer for those that don't use the railway very much.