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Why are Class 365s so popular?

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61653 HTAFC

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/government-takes-ownership-of-class-365-fleet.189660

Never understood why the 365s are so popular among enthusiasts. Not fitting air-con was an oversight when they were new, and the high-density seating since they were last refurbished is reminiscent of the ancient old coaches used for school trips when I was a kid.

The modified front ends with the toothless grin looks absolutely pug-ugly too.
 
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bramling

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Never understood why the 365s are so popular among enthusiasts. Not fitting air-con was an oversight when they were new, and the high-density seating since they were last refurbished is reminiscent of the ancient old coaches used for school trips when I was a kid.

The modified front ends with the toothless grin looks absolutely pug-ugly too.

I agree the front end is a little ugly, but that's not of any consequence in the grand scheme of things.

Likewise agreed the interior isn't as nice as it was (the original scheme and layout was excellent, probably one of the best ever for a suburban train), however judging by the fact that commuters tend to fill the airline seats just as quickly as tables I'd suggest your views on the seating layout aren't shared my most, although personally I prefer tables. Weekends are a different matter when the relative lack of tables can cause squabbles when groups are travelling - but nowadays these trains are very much a commuter train.

Apart from that they're comfortable and spacious, and personally I prefer the opening windows as at least one isn't at the complete whim of the HVAC system. They're also toasty warm in winter thanks to a very effective heating system.

The 365s are also pretty reliable - I think the issues in Scotland were more to do with the fleet having been sent up there in a massive rush (understatement!), with no opportunity for depots and operating staff to gain experience on them. Certainly their performance on GN has always been excellent, particularly so given that up until last May they were being totally thrashed with a very intensive duty cycle, not helped with units often being out of use thanks to level crossing prangs on the Kings Lynn section.

Although most on here would probably identify as enthusiast to a greater or lesser extent, I think you'll find that most of the comments stem from people who *use* them on a regular or daily basis, so this isn't just enthusiast frothing. Indeed from an enthusiast point of view one could say they're quite bland.
 
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Non Multi

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Never understood why the 365s are so popular among enthusiasts. Not fitting air-con was an oversight when they were new, and the high-density seating since they were last refurbished is reminiscent of the ancient old coaches used for school trips when I was a kid.

The modified front ends with the toothless grin looks absolutely pug-ugly too.
These pre-privatisation units would have probably received a failure prone A/C set up from new like the 166s, 158s and 159s, which was just what you want on a really hot day.
 

TrainTube

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I will not hear a bad word against their faces. The 365s are the happiest trains to ever grace the network! :lol:
Agreed, they're happy trains with one of the best sounding traction equipment on any train!
 

Royston Vasey

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Never understood why the 365s are so popular among enthusiasts. Not fitting air-con was an oversight when they were new, and the high-density seating since they were last refurbished is reminiscent of the ancient old coaches used for school trips when I was a kid.

The modified front ends with the toothless grin looks absolutely pug-ugly too.
Same seating and largely same arrangement as they had before apart from a few singles and longitudinal around the disabled toilets. They were popular on people who'd actually used them (not just enthusiasts) and you're not speaking like you have
 

Hadders

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Never understood why the 365s are so popular among enthusiasts. Not fitting air-con was an oversight when they were new, and the high-density seating since they were last refurbished is reminiscent of the ancient old coaches used for school trips when I was a kid.

The modified front ends with the toothless grin looks absolutely pug-ugly too.

As a regular user of them:

Comfortable seats
Fit for purpose layout with reasonable leg room (two bays of facing seats were changed to airline style at the last refit iirc which was a mistake imo)
Decent compromise between seat width and aisle width enabling the train to accommodate outer suburban, inner suburban and crush loading
Triangular tables allow fast boarding and exit
Opening windows a plus in my opinion - far better than the stuffiness of the 387s for example (and far better than 1990s style failed air con as per 158s which is what we would've had if air con was fitted from new)
Decent acceleration and decent ride at 100mph
Distinctive whining traction sound
Good heating system

There was a dumbing down at the last refit with removal of carpet etc but many of us believe this was to soften up passengers in readiness for the 700s!

As for the smiley face on front I like it. It's always good when a 'smiley train' turns up to whisk me to Kings Cross or back home. My train mad nephews love them too :D
 

WindsorJoe

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With regards to the aubergine fronts, ive seen a few of these working kings cross to Peterborough services. I didn’t catch the train numbers but there’s a few of these about. They have full great Northern branding and the aubergine that you refer to is the same colour as the “sash “on the Great Northern logo, so I’m guessing they have been applied by Great Northern on the front of the trains. They certainly give them a bit of life and colour and they certainly stand out.
 

59CosG95

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With regards to the aubergine fronts, ive seen a few of these working kings cross to Peterborough services. I didn’t catch the train numbers but there’s a few of these about. They have full great Northern branding and the aubergine that you refer to is the same colour as the “sash “on the Great Northern logo, so I’m guessing they have been applied by Great Northern on the front of the trains. They certainly give them a bit of life and colour and they certainly stand out.
The reason why they have that "sash" is for anti-glare measures - while 387s & 700s have DOO cameras, the 365s do not, and still have to use mirrors at the platform ends.
 

brad465

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Agreed, they're happy trains with one of the best sounding traction equipment on any train!
I agree, and by definition you'd also think the same about their MetCam 465 cousins, which sound almost identical.

It does intrigue me sometimes that that despite being "cousins" there are many performance and opinion differences between 365s and 465/466s. Ignoring different power source the former is reliable but the latter appears not so, and on this forum the 465 interior layout has been criticised even though it is very similar to 365s (although I believe the latter has had more refurbishments in its life).
 

ashkeba

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As for the smiley face on front I like it. It's always good when a 'smiley train' turns up to whisk me to Kings Cross or back home. My train mad nephews love them too :D
It is a hard hart indeed who does not smile when one approaches. Does any other multiple unit have a nickname as positive as "happy trains"? Certainly not bins, plastic pigs, Darth Vaders or Wessies... They were also a very welcome upgrade on 317s (I think) that used to serve on Cambridge routes.
 
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Never understood why the 365s are so popular among enthusiasts. Not fitting air-con was an oversight when they were new, and the high-density seating since they were last refurbished is reminiscent of the ancient old coaches used for school trips when I was a kid.

Remember, these trains were the subject of the leasing authority granted to BR, and if air-con had been fitted the number of trains procured would have been less. They weren't the subject of a normal procurement exercise, and, in simple terms, the question put to suppliers was who can build the most trains with a capital value of £150m; ABB won it, being prepared to supply 41 x class 365s.

More information can be found at: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/br-orders-its-last-41-trains-1510600.html
 

bramling

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I agree, and by definition you'd also think the same about their MetCam 465 cousins, which sound almost identical.

It does intrigue me sometimes that that despite being "cousins" there are many performance and opinion differences between 365s and 465/466s. Ignoring different power source the former is reliable but the latter appears not so, and on this forum the 465 interior layout has been criticised even though it is very similar to 365s (although I believe the latter has had more refurbishments in its life).

Personally, I like the Kent Link Networkers too.

A couple of key differences though. Firstly they have a 2+3 metro-type interior, which hasn’t kept pace with rising demand (although this comes back to the age old trade-off between those at the further reaches preferring seats and those closer in being content to stand). Secondly the interiors have been poorly maintained at times, not helped by being subject to heavy vandalism which the 365s have generally managed to avoid.

The ultimate evolution of the Networker was of course the Electrostar, which is also a pretty good train - especially the earlier versions before they changed to the ironing board seats.
 

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Same seating and largely same arrangement as they had before apart from a few singles and longitudinal around the disabled toilets. They were popular on people who'd actually used them (not just enthusiasts) and you're not speaking like you have
Never used them day in, day out... but have had call to use them semi-regularly as I have family in the Great Northern area (St. Neots). They're perfectly adequate inside but not fantastic by any stretch. Not so much better than a 321 that the enthusiasts' froth is justified, in my opinion.

That said, the first class section (as built) was pretty nice.
 

Mingulay

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I liked them when on Scottish service as they were warm. Open windows great. And a huge step up in speed and comfort than the cramped and miserable refurbished 158 units. For some reason we got a 2 car unit instead of a 385 yesterday. Standing room and hot. I got off mid journey to await a later 385.

So I was sad to see them go.

On a 385 as I type. Rattling panels and sliding doors between first and standard. Can’t be more than 6 months in service. Not promising for medium term let alone long term in service. Looks like they are a tad flimsy !
 

JohnR

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I think the 365s are "no-nonsense" trains, in that they work well, have no frills, and just get on with it. Also have good reliability.
 

Mikey C

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I agree, and by definition you'd also think the same about their MetCam 465 cousins, which sound almost identical.

It does intrigue me sometimes that that despite being "cousins" there are many performance and opinion differences between 365s and 465/466s. Ignoring different power source the former is reliable but the latter appears not so, and on this forum the 465 interior layout has been criticised even though it is very similar to 365s (although I believe the latter has had more refurbishments in its life).

The Jubilee Line 1996 stock also makes similar noises!
 

Doomotron

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I liked them when on Scottish service as they were warm. Open windows great. And a huge step up in speed and comfort than the cramped and miserable refurbished 158 units. For some reason we got a 2 car unit instead of a 385 yesterday. Standing room and hot. I got off mid journey to await a later 385.

So I was sad to see them go.

On a 385 as I type. Rattling panels and sliding doors between first and standard. Can’t be more than 6 months in service. Not promising for medium term let alone long term in service. Looks like they are a tad flimsy !
It seems a problem with all Hitachi trains, but it affects some more than others - the 395s have this as well, depending on the train. I guess a screwdriver would be enough to fix it.

Back on topic, I've been on 465s and I've seen how awful they are inside. The white on the seat backs are far too 'in-your-face' as are the orange grab handles on some of them, and the seats are basically falling out of their frames. I suppose the 365s are nothing like this.
 

ashkeba

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Back on topic, I've been on 465s and I've seen how awful they are inside. The white on the seat backs are far too 'in-your-face' as are the orange grab handles on some of them, and the seats are basically falling out of their frames. I suppose the 365s are nothing like this.
365s have grey seat backs and bright blue grabs since last refit. I've seen some seats bashed up but no more than I'd expect. See https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:365517_Standard_Class.jpg
 

61653 HTAFC

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I think the 365s are "no-nonsense" trains, in that they work well, have no frills, and just get on with it. Also have good reliability.
That's just it though: they're "no-frills" and do their job well: something that usually doesn't get the fanboys all hot under the collar, yet some get super-excited over 365s even though they'd regard a 47 as "duff" haulage!
 

ashkeba

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That's just it though: they're "no-frills" and do their job well: something that usually doesn't get the fanboys all hot under the collar, yet some get super-excited over 365s even though they'd regard a 47 as "duff" haulage!
OK. Related questions: do you understand the love for the Tama Densha? The Hello Kitty Shinkansen?

I think Bombardier missed a big marketing trick following the Happy Train with the evil-looking fanged Electrostars and dopey slaphead hit-by-a-shovel Aventras.
 

Bletchleyite

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04-3437.jpeg

Tama Densha EMU

??

That fell out of the ugly tree and hit all the branches on the way down prior to landing on the ugly metal spikes on the ugly concrete slab.
 

Bletchleyite

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And worse:

4c0a2933424dc6_img_interior06.jpg

Very pinky purply interior of the Hello Kitty Shinkansen

Seriously? Even 1990s FirstGroup would have a job coming up with a nastier internal scheme than that.
 

ashkeba

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04-3437.jpeg

Tama Densha EMU

??

That fell out of the ugly tree and hit all the branches on the way down prior to landing on the ugly metal spikes on the ugly concrete slab.
I agrrr to some degree but now go read the froth from its enthusiasts. People really like faces!
 

ashkeba

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And worse:

4c0a2933424dc6_img_interior06.jpg

Very pinky purply interior of the Hello Kitty Shinkansen

Seriously? Even 1990s FirstGroup would have a job coming up with a nastier internal scheme than that.
Are you sure? I still suspect a carriage did a turn on one of the FGW Adelante services without being noticed until it didn't catch fire... ;)
 

61653 HTAFC

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Although I agree to an extent, the old slam door 2 EPB/2Hap and 3-car DEMUs had happy faces with their black triangles ...
A shame nobody at one of the depots decided to do the Japanese style cat thing with a 2-EPB... those ears on the roof would be out of gauge though, I fear!
 
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