Why are Euston gateline staff so hostile?

[Leo1961]

it is interesting that you decide this thread is only to call out the poor behavior of staff and will not consider for one moment that passengers are less than angelic sometimes. it appears anyone attempting to point out both sides of the story is a "staff apologist".

I maintain, staff apologist or not: I have never had an issue with the dateline staff at Euston. That isn't to denigrate anyone else. It simply is a reflection of my experience as a regular user. Sorry it doesn't meet with the required tone.

How very Freudian...

 

[sprunt]

As aside I think many here expect everyone to have thier encyclopediac knowledge of the minutiae of railway ticketing rules instanlty to hand amd dont understand when others dont.

I don't expect everyone to have that knowledge. I expect people whose job it is to identify whether a specific ticket is valid for use on a specific service to have that knowledge, and I'm struggling to see why that's unreasonable.

 

[GrimShady]

it is interesting that you decide this thread is only to call out the poor behavior of staff and will not consider for one moment that passengers are less than angelic sometimes. it appears anyone attempting to point out both sides of the story is a "staff apologist".

I maintain, staff apologist or not: I have never had an issue with the dateline staff at Euston. That isnt to denigrate anyone else. It simply is a reflection of my experience as a regular user. Sorry it doesn't meet with the required tone.

Actually Rich in my post I made mention of when I had a go at a bloke who was being a grade A txxx to a young Virign employee.

I don't think anyone is under the illusion that the public are blame free but Euston has a history of it like nowhere else.

Surely if your primary job is checking tickets one should be aware of all ticket types.

 

[DarloRich]

Actually Rich in my post I made mention of when I had a go at a bloke shoe was being a grade A txxx to a young Virign employee.

I don't think anyone is under the illusion that the public are blame free but Euston has a history of it like nowhere else.

Surely if your primary job is checking tickets one should be aware of all ticket types.

I don't disagree. I simply point out my experience as a regular user. I don't seek to denigrate the experiences of anyone else.

I don't expect everyone to have that knowledge. I expect people whose job it is to identify whether a specific ticket is valid for use on a specific service to have that knowledge, and I'm struggling to see why that's unreasonable.

This is the issue I have with this board at times. Many posters cant understand how people working on the railways haven't memorised the fares bible so that, instantly, they can see if your really obscure split ticket between two really odd stations is valid. I agree ENTIRELY that they should know the rules for their line and the stations on it and when the bloody peak period is

I have some sympathy when they are presented with one of the clever ticketing ruses people here come up with. They may never have seen that combination before and might need some time to check. That is difficult with 170000 people rushing to board the 1656 to Manchester!

But then I am only human so tend to accept human fallibility a bit more than some/most posters here. Clearly, and you have to state the obvious on this board, that does not extend to people being rude or sweary at passengers. That is simply not on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the issue I have with this board at times. Many posters cant understand how people working on the railways haven't memorised the fares bible so that, instantly, they can see if your really obscure split ticket between two really odd stations is valid. I agree ENTIRELY that they should know the rules for their line and the stations on it and when the bloody peak period is

I have some sympathy when they are presented with one of the clever ticketing ruses people here come up with. They may never have seen that combination before and might need some time to check. That is difficult with 170000 people rushing to board the 1656 to Manchester!

The problem is that they don't check a lot of the time, they just say "not valid" and refuse boarding.

If that isn't possible with the staff they have, they need to either recruit another one whose job it is to deal with "referred" passengers in that way while the others continue boarding, or they need to stop that method of operation entirely.

 

[DarloRich]

The problem is that they don't check a lot of the time, they just say "not valid" and refuse boarding.

If that isn't possible with the staff they have, they need to either recruit another one whose job it is to deal with "referred" passengers in that way while the others continue boarding, or they need to stop that method of operation entirely.

Agreed - they should refer. The problem is, i suspect, time, once you factor in the Euston scrum! I will be honest I rarely have a fruity ticket for Euston ( and i also know how to "influence people" anyway) so I haven't experienced this kind of behaviour. I accept others have a different experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the solution would be to do a relatively minor redesign of the station. so that the gateline was moved up to the main concourse area with an airport style departure gate arrangement behind (the holding area could be shared between a group of platforms - as passengers for Liverpool are unlikely to get on a Birmingham or Manchester train). The gateline could then be opened to passengers as soon as the previous train to the same destination had departed and multiple gateline staff (with possibly automated barriers) given a more relaxed environment to deal with the majority of passengers and also cope with non-routine ticketing.
The problem - National Rail would lose the income from some of the franchises located at the top of the platform ramps and there would need to be a rearrangement to separate arriving from departing passengers (but this might require no more than a few removable barriers plus clear signage).

I completely agree, and I was amazed, when I first heard of the seemingly-abortive gateline project, that it wasn't planned to put it basically underneath the departure board, which is exactly where it is located at almost all other termini.

You wouldn't need to separate arrivals and departures in that way, you don't at almost any other station, you just have some barriers set to one way and some to the other. To allow queueing on the ramps, it would work to have the middle section with airport style "valve doors" allowing one way progress only.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed - they should refer. The problem is, i suspect, time, once you factor in the Euston scrum! I will be honest I rarely have a fruity ticket for Euston ( and i also know how to "influence people" anyway) so I haven't experienced this kind of behaviour. I accept others have a different experience.

I almost never use VT from Euston so I haven't seen it either, but I have heard of it a lot. Section 14 splits (e.g. a season ticket Euston-Bletchley and a single Bletchley-MKC) seem their favourite to refuse, though I've only done that in the days when VT didn't bother checking tickets on boarding, I've not had cause to do so since.

With regard to referring, that has to be to someone at the gateline who can check the situation on the spot, by making a phone call if necessary. They do regularly send people back to the ticket office, but that results in missed trains. The aim really has to be that any valid but referred ticket is resolved such that the passenger does not miss the train, and in the event that this absolutely can't be done, they should either be given the benefit of the doubt, or the staff should have some kind of pre printed pad stating "This ticket is to be accepted on the next train from that booked and Delay Repay must be paid if appropriate as they missed the train due to our staff's fault and not their own".

 

[Bantamzen]

This is the issue I have with this board at times. Many posters cant understand how people working on the railways haven't memorised the fares bible so that, instantly, they can see if your really obscure split ticket between two really odd stations is valid. I agree ENTIRELY that they should know the rules for their line and the stations on it and when the bloody peak period is

I have some sympathy when they are presented with one of the clever ticketing ruses people here come up with. They may never have seen that combination before and might need some time to check. That is difficult with 170000 people rushing to board the 1656 to Manchester!

But then I am only human so tend to accept human fallibility a bit more than some/most posters here. Clearly, and you have to state the obvious on this board, that does not extend to people being rude or sweary at passengers. That is simply not on.

There must be millions of potential ticket combinations across the UK, it would be interesting to know what percentage of these pass through major stations like Euston

The problem is that they don't check a lot of the time, they just say "not valid" and refuse boarding.

If that isn't possible with the staff they have, they need to either recruit another one whose job it is to deal with "referred" passengers in that way while the others continue boarding, or they need to stop that method of operation entirely.

Given how long it can take the fares forum members to decide on some validities (if a general
consensus is reached), how many people would that take? A better solution would be a technological one, however even then that relies on someone knowing every possible combination & loading a database to verify a ticket as it was scanned at a gateline. By no means impossible, but would still have the potential for problems, errors etc.

Frankly, I'm amazed anyone would want to work on a major gateline, sounds like a one way ticket to the funny farm....

 

[Bletchleyite]

But then I am only human so tend to accept human fallibility a bit more than some/most posters here. Clearly, and you have to state the obvious on this board, that does not extend to people being rude or sweary at passengers. That is simply not on.

Human fallibility is fine but the system has to take account of it by e.g. giving the benefit of the doubt. Human fallibility does not work in a "zero tolerance" type context - this concept only works where the rules are simple, clear and openly and clearly advertised, and a clear process for exceptions is documented, such as the policy somewhere like Metrolink where you have (or had) to telephone for a reference number permitting a free journey if there was no working TVM at your boarding station (and such a call would be likely to take a similar time as waiting in a short queue then purchasing from a TVM).

 

[matt_world2004]

Probably best not to treat passengers rudely if they have a valid ticket that you are not aware is valid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given how long it can take the fares forum members to decide on some validities (if a general
consensus is reached), how many people would that take?

In most cases not very long, as most of the disputes surrounding validity likely to occur at Euston are either going to be based on off-peak validity times (in which case a quick look at nationalrail.co.uk/XX for the restriction code makes it pretty clear) or splits (in which case a quick reference to Condition 14 of the NRCoT makes it pretty clear). I doubt there is very much really obscure stuff that goes through Euston, and, as per advice on here, a lot of it will be with an itinerary - again, a quick glance at that to verify its genuine nature will do, as an itinerary is evidence of a contract.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably best not to treat passengers rudely if they have a valid ticket that you are not aware is valid.

Best not to treat passengers rudely even if they have an invalid ticket. It might have been genuine confusion that caused it to be invalid, for instance, and they might be genuinely quite distressed as a result.

Even if it is believed to be genuine fraud, at which point things could get blunt, there is no excuse for rudeness, and the best way to deal with a rude customer is invariably to be incredibly polite (and 100% compliant to the rules) in dealing with them.

 

[matt_world2004]

Best not to treat passengers rudely even if they have an invalid ticket. It might have been genuine confusion that caused it to be invalid, for instance, and they might be genuinely quite distressed as a result.

Even if it is believed to be genuine fraud, at which point things could get blunt, there is no excuse for rudeness, and the best way to deal with a rude customer is invariably to be incredibly polite (and 100% compliant to the rules) in dealing with them.

Yes this is correct. Sorry I wasn't trying to say treat passengers who make mistakes rudely.

 

[Bantamzen]

In most cases not very long, as most of the disputes surrounding validity likely to occur at Euston are either going to be based on off-peak validity times (in which case a quick look at nationalrail.co.uk/XX for the restriction code makes it pretty clear) or splits (in which case a quick reference to Condition 14 of the NRCoT makes it pretty clear). I doubt there is very much really obscure stuff that goes through Euston, and, as per advice on here, a lot of it will be with an itinerary - again, a quick glance at that to verify its genuine nature will do, as an itinerary is evidence of a contract.

As @DarloRich says though, when you've thousands of commuters flowing through, with the pressure on to get them all onto their correct train, the time it takes to check on or more restriction codes may just be too long. People under stress don't always perform at 100% efficiency, and become more liable to making mistakes. Is it any coincidence that a gateline with such a high level of disapproval on the forums is also one of the busiest? You could shove more on of course, but there really needs to be some way of tying multiple or obscure combinations of tickets to a databased itinerary system. It'll never be perfect, but might go someway to reducing the gateline conflict.

 

[yorkie]

Funny old forum; here's a recent thread commending Euston gateline staff for their helpfulness!

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/virgin-gateline-at-euston.195677/

It's not the forum that is "funny old"; it's the inconsistency of the staff! But I have addressed that point upthread anyway.

it is interesting that you decide this thread is only to call out the poor behavior of staff and will not consider for one moment that passengers are less than angelic sometimes. it appears anyone attempting to point out both sides of the story is a "staff apologist".

If your intention was not to make excuses for poor behaviour, then it would have been prudent not to do so.

I maintain, staff apologist or not: I have never had an issue with the dateline staff at Euston. That isnt to denigrate anyone else. It simply is a reflection of my experience as a regular user. Sorry it doesn't meet with the required tone.

To be clear, you said:

I use euston on a regular (almost daily) basis. Never had one problem with gateline staff.

Why? Well I know how to behave, have a vilid ticket and dont have an attitude.....

If you had not intended to denigrate those who did experience a problem then alternative wording would have been better.

I don't disagree. I simply point out my experience as a regular user. I don't seek to denigrate the experiences of anyone else.

I do not see how your comments were anything other than an attempt to denigrate and dismiss the legitimate concerns that many valid fare payers have.

This is the issue I have with this board at times. Many posters cant understand how people working on the railways haven't memorised the fares bible so that, instantly, they can see if your really obscure split ticket between two really odd stations is valid. I agree ENTIRELY that they should know the rules for their line and the stations on it and when the bloody peak period is

As stated before, if you are unsure, you do not tell people their ticket is valid. You accept the ticket if unsure and don't have time to check. Or you check if there is sufficient time and the ability to do so.

I have some sympathy when they are presented with one of the clever ticketing ruses people here come up with. They may never have seen that combination before and might need some time to check. That is difficult with 170000 people rushing to board the 1656 to Manchester!

The complaints are not about the "time to check"; you've made that up! Also if the company has caused a situation where there is a rush then that is not the fault of customers either.

But then I am only human so tend to accept human fallibility a bit more than some/most posters here..

If you are unsure, you accept the ticket; no-one is complaining that they do not know everything.

Given how long it can take the fares forum members to decide on some validities (if a general
consensus is reached), how many people would that take?

If there is insufficient time to check a ticket, it must be accepted. It's that simple.

A better solution would be a technological one, however even then that relies on someone knowing every possible combination & loading a database to verify a ticket as it was scanned at a gateline. By no means impossible, but would still have the potential for problems, errors etc.

That's a matter for the company.

Frankly, I'm amazed anyone would want to work on a major gateline, sounds like a one way ticket to the funny farm....

And yet I know forum members who I've visited at gatelines who do a professional job. Yes they have met some challenging people, but they never let that result in them mistreating people. Yes they did not know everything; I know of some who accepted various tickets then asked me (or others) for an opinion later.

Working with the public can be challenging; it's not a job for everyone. But the company should have proper recruitment strategies in place, proper training should be provided, and adequate safeguards should be deployed.

As @DarloRich says though, when you've thousands of commuters flowing through, with the pressure on to get them all onto their correct train, the time it takes to check on or more restriction codes may just be too long. People under stress don't always perform at 100% efficiency, and become more liable to making mistakes. Is it any coincidence that a gateline with such a high level of disapproval on the forums is also one of the busiest? You could shove more on of course, but there really needs to be some way of tying multiple or obscure combinations of tickets to a databased itinerary system. It'll never be perfect, but might go someway to reducing the gateline conflict.

If it takes "too long" to check if a ticket is valid, then you may have to accept some potentially invalid tickets and move on. It's not difficult.

 

[Bantamzen]

If there is insufficient time to check a ticket, it must be accepted. It's that simple.
That's a matter for the company.

But ultimately it's not just a matter for the company, rail franchises increasingly focus on revenue protection as successive governments push for reduced subsidies and increased profits.

And yet I know forum members who I've visited at gatelines who do a professional job. Yes they have met some challenging people, but they never let that result in them mistreating people. Yes they did not know everything; I know of some who accepted various tickets then asked me (or others) for an opinion later.

I have no doubt they do, but in reality none of us know what might push someone over the edge. As a former TU rep in the public sector, I can promise you the most professional, polite & enthusiastic people can have their limits. And when people start to struggle, behavioural changes happen. They shouldn't but they do, we are after all only human. I've only ever been through Euston a handful of times, and frankly I'd be a happier man knowing that I never had to again, its a stressful place, I don't know how regular commuters put up with it let alone gate staff.

Working with the public can be challenging; it's not a job for everyone. But the company should have proper recruitment strategies in place, proper training should be provided, and adequate safeguards should be deployed.

Believe me I know, I have worked in far more challenging face to face conditions, including having direct death threats in my early career. And believe me I don't disagree that the companies should be doing more, which is why I moot a technological solution instead of companies expecting staff to know a myriad of possible combinations that would need many forum meals to chew over. There has to be a better way.

If it takes "too long" to check if a ticket is valid, then you may have to accept some potentially invalid tickets and move on. It's not difficult.

In a ideal word, where honesty prevailed this would work fine. The problem we don't, and there are people cotton onto things like that rather quickly. And again I know this all too very well from my early career, give an inch, some will take a mile.

 

[matt_world2004]

But ultimately it's not just a matter for the company, rail franchises increasingly focus on revenue protection as successive governments push for reduced subsidies and increased profits.

So drive customers away by being rude to people who have tickets where validity is uncertain

I have no doubt they do, but in reality none of us know what might push someone over the edge. As a former TU rep in the public sector, I can promise you the most professional, polite & enthusiastic people can have their limits. And when people start to struggle, behavioural changes happen. They shouldn't but they do, we are after all only human. I've only ever been through Euston a handful of times, and frankly I'd be a happier man knowing that I never had to again, its a stressful place, I don't know how regular commuters put up with it let alone gate staff.

Then if the environment is stressing out the staff the employers responsibility to minimise that, that may be for example having some staff away from the gateline, relying on barriers or other technical means to implement ticket checks , allowing gateline staff to focus more time on unusual tickets that the barriers dont recognise.

Believe me I know, I have worked in far more challenging face to face conditions, including having direct death threats in my early career. And believe me I don't disagree that the companies should be doing more, which is why I moot a technological solution instead of companies expecting staff to know a myriad of possible combinations that would need many forum meals to chew over. There has to be a better way.

In a ideal word, where honesty prevailed this would work fine. The problem we don't, and there are people cotton onto things like that rather quickly. And again I know this all too very well from my early career, give an inch, some will take a mile.

Those who repeatedly game the system by taking advantage of lack of detailed ticket checks will eventually get caught. Those who are driven away by rudeness with unusual but valid tickets , won't come back.

 

[Bantamzen]

So drive customers away by being rude to people who have tickets where validity is uncertain

That's not what I said.

Then if the environment is stressing out the staff the employers responsibility to minimise that, that may be for example having some staff away from the gateline, relying on barriers or other technical means to implement ticket checks , allowing gateline staff to focus more time on unusual tickets that the barriers dont recognise.

This I agree with.

Those who repeatedly game the system by taking advantage of lack of detailed ticket checks will eventually get caught. Those who are driven away by rudeness with unusual but valid tickets , won't come back.

Unfortunately the threat of being caught eventually won't deter a lot of people. And the bottom line for private companies is revenue, especially where revenue protection is a key part of the franchise. It is what it is, so we ether put humans on there with all the stresses and strains, or as we seem to agree on find a technological solution so that staff can be released to conduct more complex queries, offer assistance etc. I'm pretty certain they would welcome less stress and the opportunity to make people's travels less stressful.

 

[DarloRich]

@yorkie It is clear that you don't like your view being challenged and expect it simply to be accepted as gospel without disagreement.

I stand by my point. I use Euston often, I have never had a problem. I know why i haven't had a problem but it seems expressing that is not popular.

 

[MalaiseForever]

@yorkie It is clear that you don't like your view being challenged and expect it simply to be accepted as gospel without disagreement.

I stand by my point. I use Euston often, I have never had a problem. I know why i haven't had a problem but it seems expressing that is not popular.

nobody has said you have a bad problem. They are taking issue with you seemingly denying that staff are ever in the wrong.

 

[[.n]]

this is the experience of the vast majority of passengers. The people moaning on this thread cannot admit that they’ve done something wrong and that its everyone else’s fault so blame the staff.

I like many others, make hundreds of rail journeys every year, across a variety of TOCs and stations. In an average year I probably use Euston about 10 times, in an average year I encounter difficulties with the Euston gateline staff around 8-9 times (and if I count witnessing others encountering issues then we closer to 100%).

I know I've not done anything wrong, and its not my fault, so as far as I can tell that means it IS down to the poorly trained/disciplined gateline staff.

For info, issues have ranged from things already raised like prior disruption, having an annual season ticket valid for part of the journey already (i.e. split tickets), valid off peak tickets being rejected, asking politely if I could speak to the TM (quiet time, the TM was in sight), my [1st class in this instance] ticket not being valid because if wasn't from Euston as the "FROM" point (my journey had started in SWT land), told my railcard discount wasn't valid etc etc.

It's hardly surprising in the light of this that tempers can start to fray - obviously not a good thing on either side. Whilst I'm not sure of the solution, at least part of it requires a better attitude from the gateline staff, and for that to happen real change has to happen at the top.

 

[matt_world2004]

Unfortunately the threat of being caught eventually won't deter a lot of people. And the bottom line for private companies is revenue, especially where revenue protection is a key part of the franchise. It is what it is, so we ether put humans on there with all the stresses and strains, or as we seem to agree on find a technological solution so that staff can be released to conduct more complex queries, offer assistance etc. I'm pretty certain they would welcome less stress and the opportunity to make people's travels less stressful.

That's ultimately not the customers who has an unusual but valid tickets fault

 

[Bantamzen]

That's ultimately not the customers who has an unusual but valid tickets fault

No, but ultimately it will be them paying for any drop in revenue.

 

[matt_world2004]

No, but ultimately it will be them paying for any drop in revenue.

Since fares are regulated and usually are raised by the maximum amount every year , how exactly.

 

[DarloRich]

nobody has said you have a bad problem. They are taking issue with you seemingly denying that staff are ever in the wrong.

I haven't had a problem. Bad or otherwise.

I absolutely don't deny staff are ever in the wrong. I am sure they are. Are you denying passengers are ever in the wrong?

 

[Bantamzen]

Since fares are regulated and usually are raised by the maximum amount every year , how exactly.

The government allow them to increase fares to make up the loss? Remember, the government look to take money from the TOCs, so if the reducing subsidies forecasts are at risk.... Well you figure it out!

 

[matt_world2004]

The government allow them to increase fares to make up the loss? Remember, the government look to take money from the TOCs, so if the reducing subsidies forecasts are at risk.... Well you figure it out!

By RPI+1% that's the maximum and that's the amount it increases by every year

 

[Bantamzen]

By RPI+1% that's the maximum and that's the amount it increases by every year

That could be changed. This is what governments do! I really shouldn't need to spell it out like this.

 

[matt_world2004]

That could be changed. This is what governments do! I really shouldn't need to spell it out like this.

They raise it every year by that amount and virgin trains is no different