Why are Northern allowed to cancel Sunday Services seemingly at will?

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Puffing Devil, 20 Apr 2019.

  1. Llama

    Llama Member

    Messages:
    780
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2014
    Sundays aren't (weren't) flat rate, there was an enhancement.
     
  2. 323235

    323235 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,667
    Joined:
    8 Dec 2007
    Location:
    North East Cheshire
    So how long is the new agreement for?
     
  3. scrapy

    scrapy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,060
    Joined:
    15 Dec 2008
    Until end July if new deal is rejected by ASLEF members. If deal accepted then it will last until deal is implemented.
     
  4. scrapy

    scrapy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,060
    Joined:
    15 Dec 2008
    Just to update that this bridging agreement comes to an end this Sunday after ASLEF members have rejected by a large margin a proposed deal for Sundays in the working week. Unless a new temporary agreement is drawn up then it is likely to be back to driver shortages on Sundays in the west from 21st.
     
  5. TUC

    TUC Established Member

    Messages:
    2,028
    Joined:
    11 Nov 2010
    It really is important that whatever revised model of franchising emerges removes any sense of the government being the banker of last resort, so that all these restrictive practices can be washed away by business necessity, in the same way that bus deregulation had a similarly beneficial effect.
     
  6. mandub

    mandub Member

    Messages:
    52
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2013
    Obviously this thread is re Sunday shortages.
    But just to clarify, the new deal has indeed been rejected today 63.5% to 33.5%, but this rejection wasn't just about Sundays in the working week.
    Lots on the East must have voted against as well and they already have Sundays in the week. It was a wide ranging harmonisation deal with lots of proposed changes and drivers voted against it for lots of different reasons.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jul 2019 at 07:50
  7. Aivilo

    Aivilo Member

    Messages:
    429
    Joined:
    15 Jan 2014
    Location:
    Surrey
    Not to divert from the thread but this is true. Lots of others factors leading to it being rejected. Sunday's shouldn't change in the immediate so I wouldn't worry
     
  8. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

    Messages:
    2,754
    Joined:
    26 Aug 2012
    Our inherent fear of change (including myself on many occasions ) alongside a large number of long serving staff surely make such harmonisation deals extremely difficult to ever get voted through, as has been seen on numerous other TOCs & the old Northern.
     
  9. mandub

    mandub Member

    Messages:
    52
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2013
    Yep.
    If Northern want to get Sundays in the working week on the west they should present a deal for that alone and not try to attach it to a full harmonisation across the 2 regions.
     
  10. TUC

    TUC Established Member

    Messages:
    2,028
    Joined:
    11 Nov 2010
    What other business would put up with one region continuing to pretend to be two? It is a disgraceful waste of public money.
     
  11. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

    Messages:
    1,486
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2017
    I do wonder how close we are to seeing what Local Authorities did a few years ago when unions were blocking harmonisation and modernisation, ie. these are the new contracts, sign them and keep working for us, or don't sign them, in which case here's your notice.
     
  12. Aivilo

    Aivilo Member

    Messages:
    429
    Joined:
    15 Jan 2014
    Location:
    Surrey
    That's isn't to far off what happened with Southern over guards.

    Drivers though, pretty safe
     
  13. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

    Messages:
    1,486
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2017
    I don't understand why though. I mean, is there really a shortage of people who want the job? I know training takes aeons, but seriously?
     
  14. Val3ntine

    Val3ntine Member

    Messages:
    224
    Joined:
    29 Apr 2015
    Location:
    London
    No there’s not a shortage of people who wants the job but these new people who do come in the job will sign up to the union because they see the benefits and strengths it has and certainly won’t want to be contributory factors to the job potentially turning into horrible conditions that they may have just ran away from. And so it goes on
     
  15. TUC

    TUC Established Member

    Messages:
    2,028
    Joined:
    11 Nov 2010
    Just create new terms and conditions for new staff and let the old ones wither on the vine.
     
  16. JamesT

    JamesT Member

    Messages:
    349
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2015
    Except as has been noted when this suggestion has been made before, the Unions vehemently object to differing contracts like that so it would almost certainly set off another round of industrial action.
     
  17. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

    Messages:
    1,486
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2017
    This has happened in other industries. Local Authorities, education, the NHS, all have been through that process (often known as Job Evaluation). In *all* of those industries, there was strife with the unions, there were some strikes, and plenty of staff chose the option of leaving. But, in the long run, the exercise was successful and new contracts were introduced. I fail to see why the railways should be a special case.
     
  18. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

    Messages:
    5,477
    Joined:
    13 Dec 2013
    Location:
    UK
    All industries where people are deemed to be underpaid and overworked. All industries where they are failing to attract new staff and industries where they are blowing through their budgets and are wasting money and overspending.

    The railway shouldn't be a 'special case' but it does have its own reasons why you can't and shouldn't just screw over employees. Do you not care about those who were and would be affected by such disgraceful actions by an employer or do you support said action ? Should we just offer a new set of terms with a pay scale set at minimum wage for everyone ?

    You have a workforce who decided 65/35 against the new contracts. Imagine what would happen if your workforce decided not to accept your new contract.

    You have to cancel hundreds, potentially thousands of services every day
    You are no understaffed and recruitment and replacement is 100-150k+ per employee
    You now have to pay a boat load of overtime to cover services, training and other costs
    Goodwill is gone
    Reputation is gone

    It's far easier and cheaper to incrementally move towards harmonization over time. You could offer a new entrant contract and you could offer a huge carrot to enable a single clause deal. Or you could screw people over at a huge cost to yourself.

    I have friends in both Education and the NHS so I have seen what happens to those on the ground. I have also previous mentioned about my own experience of forcing contract changes through disgraceful employment practices. There is an easy way and a hard way. Unfortunately the 'easy way' isn't pleasant.
     
  19. Eccles1983

    Eccles1983 On Moderation

    Messages:
    499
    Joined:
    4 Sep 2016
    Who is going to train this new breed on different contracts?

    As your senior drivers would refuse to instruct.

    If you are happy for effectively 2-5 years of disruption and complete working to rule with an overtime ban, training ban and other implications then lobby your MP.

    I shan't hold my breath.
     

Share This Page