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Why are Northern allowed to cancel Sunday Services seemingly at will?

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robbeech

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Whilst this is true, short formed trains can lead to increased dwell times which then causes late running and potential fines for the operators. I noticed today that many services were running to the Monday - Friday formations which is a welcome surprise. It doesn't excuse the shortage of traincrew though and Northern really need to be addressing this as a priority

Agreed, and of course in the interest of fairness the number of people delayed as a result of not being able to board will increase. But to counteract that we see a higher number of rejections (possibly automated) as the service they intended to catch was not delayed and they cannot and likely will not adjust the way their system works to account for this scenario as it would incur additional costs as they had more claims to pay out.
Of course the usual way they solve they overcrowding on short forms problem out is by skipping stops. No penalties here if it makes up the time by its destination, and again, out of the few people that will claim, they’ll all be rejected initially.
 
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DI1964

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Reliably told a new temporary agreement kicks in from next Sunday which will end the current Sunday driver shortages.
This is until a new permanent agreement takes place which will take Sundays into the working week, this new deal is currently being finalised before going out to ASLEF members to vote on.
 

AMD

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Reliably told a new temporary agreement kicks in from next Sunday which will end the current Sunday driver shortages.

We will see how long it lasts....
It was agreed between Company Council and Northern over the heads of the members, there are a good number of drivers who are really not happy with it.
 

Matt_pool

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13.26 from Lime Street to Oxford Road was cancelled earlier today.

14.46 from Oxford Road to Lime Street is also cancelled, which coincidentally was the one I was planning to get. That gives me time to make alternative arrangements. But what about the majority of people who turn up at the station without checking. They've either got an hour to wait until the next train (unless that is also cancelled!) or will have to find an alternative means of transport, which isn't easy if you live somewhere like Irlam and need to get to Liverpool!
 

Matt_pool

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20.16 Lime Street to Oxford Rd cancelled!

If you rely on Northern on Sundays forget it. Expect to be stranded somewhere on the network, or raid your piggy bank to get taxis everywhere!
 

Killingworth

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Here we go, for starters on Hope Valley Line, 8.31 from Piccadilly to Sheffield cancelled (This service was cancelled throughout due to an issue with the train crew (TG)) and return working at 10.17.

Oh dear, it got worse. 8 have now been cancelled. At least they've found bus drivers to operate a substitute service instead of the 22.23 trains.

"22:16 Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly due 23:37 will be cancelled.
This is due to a shortage of train drivers.
Additional Information
Road transport run by 1 x 16 Sky coach & 1 x 16 Mayfair Minibuses & 1 x FS Ocean Travel will depart Sheffield at 22:16 and depart Newmills Central at 23:06 all stations to Manchester Piccadilly."

Apparently it will arrive in Manchester at 1.40?! Presumably the New Mills departure is a separate bus as that is the normal rail departure time. Any service to Edale will be a minibus. At least they've tried. 3 buses to cover one train.

Does 2 hours late win any new business? Bank Holiday weekends are when demand is highest in the Peak District. What will tomorrow bring?
 

robbeech

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If the options are trains, buses that go direct and are fast, or not enough buses that are all stops and will get them back 3 hours late then they’ll go with the cheapest. The revenue from the people travelling on those services will not cover the cost of the buses even if they ran to time and no claims were made. It’s a negligible cost so they might aswell choose the cheapest.

At least they have something rather than just turning around and saying tough luck which has happened on services on the past.
 

js1000

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Seems to be some problems with late Northern services and this new timetable that isn't simply limited to Sunday. The last Northern service from Piccadilly to the Airport (23:52) was cancelled on Friday. The (00:38) Sunday service last night was also cancelled. Both appear to be the result of driver availability issues.

It's not good and exposes Northern to claims under the Consumer Rights Act. (i.e. taxi fare home because last train arrived)
 

bobbyrail

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Seems to be some problems with late Northern services and this new timetable that isn't simply limited to Sunday. The last Northern service from Piccadilly to the Airport (23:52) was cancelled on Friday. The (00:38) Sunday service last night was also cancelled. Both appear to be the result of driver availability issues.

It's not good and exposes Northern to claims under the Consumer Rights Act. (i.e. taxi fare home because last train arrived)

The 23:52 from Piccadilly was a Blackpool North to Manchester Airport service, these were all cancelled throughout the afternoon and evening because of the OHLE problem that day near Preston. So NR will be picking up the bill for those claims.
 

Dr Hoo

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The 23:52 from Piccadilly was a Blackpool North to Manchester Airport service, these were all cancelled throughout the afternoon and evening because of the OHLE problem that day near Preston. So NR will be picking up the bill for those claims.
The performance regime is only intended to cover future revenue loss. It is not designed to cover 'claims', taxis or Delay Repay.
 

bobbyrail

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The performance regime is only intended to cover future revenue loss. It is not designed to cover 'claims', taxis or Delay Repay.

I think that surely Schedule 8 debunks this as

"The way the performance regime works means that we do not calculate the payments to operators for individual incidents. There are only two exceptions to this:

  • For significant incidents of disruption, we sometimes estimate the performance payments relating to that incident. These estimates help us to make decisions on how to improve the railway.
  • Where an identified third party has caused delay, for instance a vehicle has struck a bridge, and we consider there is a realistic prospect of recovering the cost, it will calculate the cost of that incident for the purposes of pursuing a claim against the third party.
Above quoted from Network Rail - https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...anies/payments-for-disruption-on-the-railway/


I would say that the effective closure of a major north-south link for many hours falls into this category.
 

Dr Hoo

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I think that surely Schedule 8 debunks this as

"The way the performance regime works means that we do not calculate the payments to operators for individual incidents. There are only two exceptions to this:

  • For significant incidents of disruption, we sometimes estimate the performance payments relating to that incident. These estimates help us to make decisions on how to improve the railway.
  • Where an identified third party has caused delay, for instance a vehicle has struck a bridge, and we consider there is a realistic prospect of recovering the cost, it will calculate the cost of that incident for the purposes of pursuing a claim against the third party.
Above quoted from Network Rail - https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...anies/payments-for-disruption-on-the-railway/


I would say that the effective closure of a major north-south link for many hours falls into this category.
No, this is quite consistent with what I posted. Schedule 8 does not operate at the level of individual incidents because it relies on aggregating lateness across monitoring points and service groups against benchmarks and applying calculations in blocks of 28-day periods. A large incident on a multi-user main line will affect multiple service groups and locations well away from the original location.
So during the ‘inquest’ into major incidents (typically causing over X-thousand minutes of delay or YYY cancellations) the payments may be estimated with a view to deciding if there is likely to be a business case for a scheme to reduce the likelihood of a recurrence or assist with faster recovery. This obviously works better with things that might recur, such as trespass and flooding, or where assets are becoming hard to maintain. It is less helpful for events like a lineside fire where the same building is unlikely to burn down twice.
Estimation of Schedule 8 payments in this context is an internal Network Rail process. This is not to say that sensible joint performance improvement planning will not also involve local operators who might comment that savings in overtime and Delay Repay are additional reasons for proceeding with particular schemes.
(During my 40-year career on the railway before retirement I was extensively involved in performance management, recording, reporting, improvement, compensation, attribution, targeting and so forth. I was also ‘stranded’ in Scotland by the Preston incident and had to return south via York.)

Anyway, this is rather off-thread for the original question. I have to say that I am still waiting to see much evidence of the original premises. Who exactly at Northern is demonstrating any ‘will’ to cancel trains? Surely the rostering staff, controllers and others are trying their hardest to run as many trains as possible?
I would also expect that Northern has to record and report all cancellations to the DfT and Transport for the North as franchising and monitoring bodies. These results will be compared to targets and Northern may be subject to normal sanctions if these are missed. Has there been any evidence that these processes are not being applied? This is a matter dear to my heart as local rail travel in the Hope Valley on Sundays is a complete lottery at present and I am getting tired of driving to places like Dronfield and Chesterfield rather than using the train.
 

jkkne

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No wonder Northern and the dft get away with it, half this thread is people in their happy dream world just saying...ah leave an hour earlier, don’t spend time with your family, lose an hour of sleep, skip breakfast or simply plan better for a TOC not operating timetabled services. It’s the British way old chap, stiff upper lip, mustn't grumble, being at work an hour early allowed you to be more productive...my dad it during the war...back in the 50s I walked 10 mile to work. Don’t bother with a social life.
 

fowler9

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No wonder Northern and the dft get away with it, half this thread is people in their happy dream world just saying...ah leave an hour earlier, don’t spend time with your family, lose an hour of sleep, skip breakfast or simply plan better for a TOC not operating timetabled services. It’s the British way old chap, stiff upper lip, mustn't grumble, being at work an hour early allowed you to be more productive...my dad it during the war...back in the 50s I walked 10 mile to work. Don’t bother with a social life.
100% agree. If I get to my desk an hour earlier before I need to be and then fail to deliver service day after day after day I get sacked. This doesn't apply to the railways apparently. Ha ha .
 

Deafdoggie

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No wonder Northern and the dft get away with it, half this thread is people in their happy dream world just saying...ah leave an hour earlier, don’t spend time with your family, lose an hour of sleep, skip breakfast or simply plan better for a TOC not operating timetabled services. It’s the British way old chap, stiff upper lip, mustn't grumble, being at work an hour early allowed you to be more productive...my dad it during the war...back in the 50s I walked 10 mile to work. Don’t bother with a social life.

Yet mention Boxing Day to these people, and they say "Family Time, Lie-in, why should we have to get to work" happy for others to give all this up for Railway failings, but not give it up themselves. Alas as you say, nothing will change whilst these attitudes remain.
 

underbank

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No wonder Northern and the dft get away with it, half this thread is people in their happy dream world just saying...ah leave an hour earlier, don’t spend time with your family, lose an hour of sleep, skip breakfast or simply plan better for a TOC not operating timetabled services. It’s the British way old chap, stiff upper lip, mustn't grumble, being at work an hour early allowed you to be more productive...my dad it during the war...back in the 50s I walked 10 mile to work. Don’t bother with a social life.

And yet, the entire railway industry seem obsessed with speed and reducing journey times. That's contradictory when the same people tell you to take an earlier train in case of delays or cancellations. Or the standard response to lack of late/early trains at Manchester Airport is to stay overnight in a hotel. And heaven help anyone who dates to want to use a train on a Sunday. It does seem as if the entire industry is operated around the needs of the staff rather than the passengers.
 

robbeech

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The entire industry is run for that reason. It’s run to generate the maximum amount of revenue. It’s a business, and that is a justifiable reason for wanting to maximise revenue. It’s a shame that at the same time, customer service suffers and quite often nothing is done about it.
 

muz379

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I've also lived by this ethos. For me it was my Mum that drove it into me. Leave early, plan for any problems, allow for things to go wrong, have an alternative etc. My drive to work can take 20 minutes on a good day. On a bad day it takes nearly an hour. Trains, planes and automobiles never run on time. It would be remiss of me not to allow for that. I also firmly believe in personal responsibility. If I know the train is regularly late and I needed to be somewhere and I didn't plan for that. It would be MY Fault.

*Disclaimer : I work for a TOC. Apparently that informs my opinion and I'm not allowed to every be a 'passenger' or a 'human' or an 'adult' :rolleyes:
Precisely what I do when driving to work as well . on an early turn I leave 30mins before my start time especially if its a start before 6am when there is no traffic , but when I am coming in for an afternoon I give an hour . All it takes is one small accident and traffic just builds up out of nowhere .

Especially if it was a new job , why be a martyr to the "well the train service is poor I couldn't help it " argument . I doubt your probationary period will end well .

The responses by some individuals about the low quality we should expect from their services are, shall we say, 'interesting', but still don't answer my questions!

And the word 'always' was used!
I think you are reading a bit too much into this , the "get the train before " advice to me just seemed like friendly advice to someone starting a new job , at least that is the way I read it .

To be honest i think it is friendly advice , if I was starting a new job and relying on public transport of any kind for any part of the journey I would build in enough flex to ensure that even if I had to abandon public transport and get there by some other means I wouldn't be late . Perhaps when I had got my feet under the table I would take some of the flex out . But when you are new its probably best not to get a reputation for always arriving last minute or late . I would even advocate this approach in a new job if not relying on public transport , for example if someone was driving to a new job and the drive was usually 25 minutes , whilst new and trying to make a good first impression and pass any probationary period I would easily say double that to ensure you are not late . That is the approach I have used and still do use even though I am no longer "new" . But then I take pride in not turning up to work late all the time , in fact I cannot remember the last time I was late for work it has been years .

Look at it this way , if members of train crew started applying the "why should I build flex into my commute instead of spending time with my family" approach then people would rightly be saying that it is unprofessional not to ensure that you make some allowances for things not going to plan .
 

Aivilo

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Imagine a board game, only so many pieces and selected moves. Remove a few of the above and it doesn't work.

Let me just query something? If you were unable to take annual leave on a Sunday but could opt out of a shift legally in writing, would you? Because that's the reality
 

cuccir

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I don't think it's unreasonable for drivers to follow the working patterns to which they are entitled. I also don't think it's unreasonable for a large company providing a state-franchised service to be able to manage its staffing levels to provide the level of service that they have committed to providing. In a competently run company these two things are not mutually exclusive.
 

geoffk

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"Northern has advised that a bridging agreement has been reached with ASLEF over driver rest day working and that it expects to operate a normal Sunday
service this weekend. This will see the re-introduction of services on the following routes:
• Liverpool Lime Street – Wigan North Western
• Manchester Victoria – Wigan Wallgate via Atherton
• Manchester Piccadilly – Hazel Grove"

Source is a local rail user group e-mail. Anyone know more?
 

ComUtoR

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Let me just query something? If you were unable to take annual leave on a Sunday but could opt out of a shift legally in writing, would you? Because that's the reality

Is the agreement a 'committed rest day agreement' that is voluntary ? That's what happened at a TOC down my way.

As to your scenario. Personally I'd opt out :)
 

evoluzione

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"Northern has advised that a bridging agreement has been reached with ASLEF over driver rest day working and that it expects to operate a normal Sunday
service this weekend. This will see the re-introduction of services on the following routes:
• Liverpool Lime Street – Wigan North Western
• Manchester Victoria – Wigan Wallgate via Atherton
• Manchester Piccadilly – Hazel Grove"

Source is a local rail user group e-mail. Anyone know more?

Yep, simplified version.

From this Sunday drivers on the West will earn more for working a Sunday than a Rest Day Ka-Ching :D in exchange for this uplift Booked Sunday’s must now be worked unless cover is available.

This agreement is only temporary and tied to the upcoming NDfD referendum.
 

Mathew S

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Yep, simplified version.

From this Sunday drivers on the West will earn more for working a Sunday than a Rest Day Ka-Ching :D in exchange for this uplift Booked Sunday’s must now be worked unless cover is available.

This agreement is only temporary and tied to the upcoming NDfD referendum.
Good news, kind of. At least should mean Sundays become usable days on the trains again... for a while at least.

What's NDfD?
 

geoffk

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Thanks for info. I was going to ask about the NDfD referendum, and whether it was advisory only, like a certain other one!
 

mandub

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NDfD = New deal for drivers (an ASLEF backed harmonisation deal across East & West parts of Northern)
Our ASLEF rep has stated although the vote we're having on the deal is called a referendum, the result will be binding.
 

northernchris

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Whilst this is good news will this impact weekday services if drivers earn less for working a rest day? Or do Northern now have enough drivers without relying too much on overtime during the week?
 

Aivilo

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The railways rely on overtime full stop. *Edited as probably said to much*
 
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