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Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

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squizzler

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Auto correct uses a program that memories words that you use together so that's why the 0 Series Shinkansen shows up.
In that case how is it you and I both get the same, although we presumably have different occasions for using the phrase?

More fun to think that in California there is somebody going through a list of nouns and assigning an emoticon to each one. Perhaps he or she leant over to the person on the neighbouring desk to ask: 'what's an HS2?'.
 
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theelob

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Hello all! So, after the general election, I have a bit of a campaigning shaped hole in my life, and seeing the various threats to the future of HS2 floating around I'm feeling like using my time to campaign for HS2.

I feel like there is a total lack of any kind of grassroots campaign on the pro-building side - and of course absolutely loads of grassroots activity on the other side. This is surely not helpful in the public's continued lack of understanding of the benefits of the project, and the continued lack of public support.

Does anyone know of any groups doing such campaigning? And if not, would anyone be interested in starting something?
 

Meerkat

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HS2. Boris loves a big shiny thing, and is saying One Nation Conservative and ‘bring the country together’ as much as possible....
 

DynamicSpirit

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Hello all! So, after the general election, I have a bit of a campaigning shaped hole in my life, and seeing the various threats to the future of HS2 floating around I'm feeling like using my time to campaign for HS2.

I feel like there is a total lack of any kind of grassroots campaign on the pro-building side - and of course absolutely loads of grassroots activity on the other side. This is surely not helpful in the public's continued lack of understanding of the benefits of the project, and the continued lack of public support.

Does anyone know of any groups doing such campaigning? And if not, would anyone be interested in starting something?

Some months ago, I tried to set up a group with some people from this very thread who seemed clued up. Unfortunately, we never got beyond the point of discussing in principle what we might be doing, and then interest seemed to dry up. I do wonder whether, with the review of HS2 ongoing and various hints that it'll come out quite favourable to HS2, there's perhaps less need for such a group than there was - say - 6 months ago when you had Tory Party leadership contenders openly bashing HS2 - presumably in an attempt to garner votes from right wing Tory party members.

But if you want I can send you the link to the the group chat to see if there's anything you feel you can contribute.
 

PartyOperator

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The people in the best position to advocate for HS2 now are probably the Conservative MPs for places like Crewe and Solihull that will most directly benefit. If you're a constituent, write to them!
 

squizzler

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Now that the HS2 scheme looks secure you are probably better joining those agitating for the scheme to become more of a rolling programme of further lines.

The SNP has always wanted the line to extend over the border...
 

PeterC

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Hello all! So, after the general election, I have a bit of a campaigning shaped hole in my life, and seeing the various threats to the future of HS2 floating around I'm feeling like using my time to campaign for HS2.

I feel like there is a total lack of any kind of grassroots campaign on the pro-building side - and of course absolutely loads of grassroots activity on the other side. This is surely not helpful in the public's continued lack of understanding of the benefits of the project, and the continued lack of public support.

Does anyone know of any groups doing such campaigning? And if not, would anyone be interested in starting something?
One problem is that, because of the way HS2 has been mis-sold to the public, grassroots pressure from those affected is to cancel it and use the money to solve the problems that it intended to solve. (EG lack of capacity for Milton Keynes)
 

Polarbear

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One problem is that, because of the way HS2 has been mis-sold to the public, grassroots pressure from those affected is to cancel it and use the money to solve the problems that it intended to solve. (EG lack of capacity for Milton Keynes)

That's particularly true when you look on Twitter. There are still quite a number of people on there that are opposed to HS2 & seem hell bent on trying to get it stopped. Also, lots of emotive talk & hyperbole regarding the "destruction" of certain areas where preliminary work is being undertaken.

I've largely given up arguing with most of them - they refuse point blank to listen to any reasoned argument & often become hostile when challenged on some of their assumptions.

I do appreciate that people will have different views, but for me, it's a testament to how poorly HS2 itself has supported & publicised it's own project that such people continue to oppose a project that will enable a real modal shift from road to rail.
 

ExRes

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Now that the HS2 scheme looks secure you are probably better joining those agitating for the scheme to become more of a rolling programme of further lines.

The SNP has always wanted the line to extend over the border...

I wonder if Ms Sturgeon has costed out how an independent Scotland would pay for that extension
 

Bevan Price

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I wonder if Ms Sturgeon has costed out how an independent Scotland would pay for that extension

And would passengers have to alight at the border and pass through customs /security checks? (At the insistence of the Engliah Home Office)
 

Speed43125

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I wonder if Ms Sturgeon has costed out how an independent Scotland would pay for that extension
I think coming up with an actual scottish HS2 station would be the first concern, Underground at Waverly? Extend Glasgow Central over the river?
 

The Ham

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That's particularly true when you look on Twitter. There are still quite a number of people on there that are opposed to HS2 & seem hell bent on trying to get it stopped. Also, lots of emotive talk & hyperbole regarding the "destruction" of certain areas where preliminary work is being undertaken.

I've largely given up arguing with most of them - they refuse point blank to listen to any reasoned argument & often become hostile when challenged on some of their assumptions.

I do appreciate that people will have different views, but for me, it's a testament to how poorly HS2 itself has supported & publicised it's own project that such people continue to oppose a project that will enable a real modal shift from road to rail.

Indeed, of you point out that HS2 will have 300,000 passengers a day (which they admit, but question how that could be) then that's 90 million to 110 million passengers a year (depending on if that's 300 days a year (so as to allow for quite a few quiet days) or 365 days (assuming that the figure is a simple take the annual and spread over the year).

As such if we take the mid point of 100 million (333 days a year, but mostly as it makes the maths easy) and then compare it against the complaint that there's only 1% shift from air. Well it shouldn't take you long to realise that this will be 1 million fewer air passenger movements a year.

Given that most regional aircraft have capacity of around 200 seats that's the potential for 5,000 fewer flights a year.

However that's an over simplification, as very few regional flights are full and even if they are you don't need to move all 200 to rail before the airlines then have services which aren't viable and look to reduce provision.

If that's the case is not unreasonable to expect that there could be a reduction of between 5,000 and 10,000 regional flights a year.

Likewise 1% of HS2 passengers doesn't sound a lot, however when you compare that 1 million to the risk number of domestic passengers, which is 22.8 million then HS2 will be taking 4.4% of all domestic passengers. That starts to sound quite a lot better.

Likewise whilst the 4 million journeys switching from road doesn't sound a lot compared to the 5.6 billion car trips, it should be remembered that the average car trip length is 8.2 miles whilst the average train journey (and HS2 trips would be much longer still) is 30.9 miles.

As such if each person removes 2 car trips of 31 miles and switches to HS2 for that trip out would reduce the average total traveled by car by 1% however it would increase total rail distance by double. That's before you consider that there's potential for extra growth on the existing network.
 

6Gman

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The people in the best position to advocate for HS2 now are probably the Conservative MPs for places like Crewe and Solihull that will most directly benefit. If you're a constituent, write to them!

The new Tory MP for Crewe has already called for HS2 to continue "regardless".
 

class26

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The new Tory MP for Crewe has already called for HS2 to continue "regardless".

I think the fact that there are so many new Toiry MP`s in the north will have a profound effect on infrastructure in that area over the next few years as long as they can get the planning process shortened and get the shovels working so there are visible signs of action
 

Bald Rick

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I think the fact that there are so many new Toiry MP`s in the north will have a profound effect on infrastructure in that area over the next few years as long as they can get the planning process shortened and get the shovels working so there are visible signs of action

The planning process is already pretty quick. What isn’t quick, or at least hasn’t been for the last half decade, is the political process. However with that majority, you can assume that it will be quicker now.
 

underbank

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If that's the case is not unreasonable to expect that there could be a reduction of between 5,000 and 10,000 regional flights a year.

Depends really on whether air passengers actually change to rail. How many of the extra rail passengers using HS2 will have previously travelled by road, or simply not travelled at all? How many will be due to population increase. With some flights being well below capacity, there may be no fewer flights at all if not many people change modes of transport and more people choose to fly, i.e. from population increases or due to lower fares due to lower passenger numbers?

Personally speaking, I'd use the railways a lot more IF they were more reliable, cheaper and journey times shorter. I think there's a lot of suppressed demand, especially on "forgotten" routes. My hope is that HS2 opens up the rail network to make currently difficult routes feasible again. As long as it's not all about London<>Scotland I'm all in favour. I'd love to see far more cross country routes being established due to the easing of pinch-points etc. Not holding my breath though as I don't believe it will happen. Really hoping that after the GE and Northern constituencies being so strategically important in the next GE, the Northern regions will get a much better and broader rail service - let's start with a guarantee that the Northern Power House and HS2 right through to Man/Leeds will happen sooner rather than later.
 

Grumpy Git

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With the total concentration of direct flights to Europe situated in the south east and with the proposal to build a third runway at Heathrow, a <2 hour Liverpool to Heathrow train would be a pipe dream.
 

The Ham

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Depends really on whether air passengers actually change to rail. How many of the extra rail passengers using HS2 will have previously travelled by road, or simply not travelled at all? How many will be due to population increase. With some flights being well below capacity, there may be no fewer flights at all if not many people change modes of transport and more people choose to fly, i.e. from population increases or due to lower fares due to lower passenger numbers?

Personally speaking, I'd use the railways a lot more IF they were more reliable, cheaper and journey times shorter. I think there's a lot of suppressed demand, especially on "forgotten" routes. My hope is that HS2 opens up the rail network to make currently difficult routes feasible again. As long as it's not all about London<>Scotland I'm all in favour. I'd love to see far more cross country routes being established due to the easing of pinch-points etc. Not holding my breath though as I don't believe it will happen. Really hoping that after the GE and Northern constituencies being so strategically important in the next GE, the Northern regions will get a much better and broader rail service - let's start with a guarantee that the Northern Power House and HS2 right through to Man/Leeds will happen sooner rather than later.

25% of HS2 passengers are due to "new" journeys. Of these a significant number will be down population growth. As such there's already an allowance for that.

Before anyone suggests that we shouldn't be encouraging extra travel, which I generally agree with, there's the issue that to just stand still in terms of miles traveled of predictions on population growth are correct we'll all need to reduce the number of miles we travel by 10%.

However, of we all move to using public transport then as long as the amount we all transfer is enough to reduce emissions by enough to cover the increase in emissions from the population growth then it's all good.

For instance if using public transport allows us to reduce our emissions by 20% compared to driving, then if we switch 50% of our travel to public transport then we then don't need to make any reduction in the amount traveled.

However if we all reduce our car trips by 3% and walk those trips instead as well as move a significant number of trips to public transport then we could reduce our emissions whilst still allowing for 10% population growth.
 

theelob

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Some months ago, I tried to set up a group with some people from this very thread who seemed clued up. Unfortunately, we never got beyond the point of discussing in principle what we might be doing, and then interest seemed to dry up. I do wonder whether, with the review of HS2 ongoing and various hints that it'll come out quite favourable to HS2, there's perhaps less need for such a group than there was - say - 6 months ago when you had Tory Party leadership contenders openly bashing HS2 - presumably in an attempt to garner votes from right wing Tory party members.

But if you want I can send you the link to the the group chat to see if there's anything you feel you can contribute.
For me this came from seeing hints very recently that Boris might cancel it - but it was nothing concrete and I agree it still seems likely to go ahead okay. Might as well add me to the chat though!
 

LOL The Irony

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For me this came from seeing hints very recently that Boris might cancel it - but it was nothing concrete and I agree it still seems likely to go ahead okay. Might as well add me to the chat though!
The North of England won Boris the election and NPHR will not go ahead/be severely delayed if HS2 doesn't go ahead, he needs to make HS2 happen.
 

Bald Rick

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For me this came from seeing hints very recently that Boris might cancel it - but it was nothing concrete and I agree it still seems likely to go ahead okay. Might as well add me to the chat though!

Can’t see it being cancelled. The new administration needs some shovel ready infrastructure projects to give the go ahead to to show it can do things and give the economy a boost. And there’s nothing more ready, or needing more shovels, than this.
 

Meerkat

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“Thanks to northerners for voting for me, but I’m cancelling your fast trains”
Not buying it. Take the credit for approving it and any budget debacles will probably be at least one election away.
 

The Ham

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I think HS2 and NPR will be approved. So will a solution to the Castlefield conundrum,- I am just not sure which one

I do wonder if NPR will be tasked with building bits of HS2 in the North so both can be seen to be making progress in the North.
 
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