Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

[MarkyT]

Would it work for you if one of the other residents gave the run of the roof garden to their pit-bull, or carried out some other unsociable activity up there?

Clearly there'd have to be some behavioral rules for any communal areas.

 

[TrafficEng]

Is it? Trains have for years stopped at short platforms. ASDO is just a demonstration that modern-day health and safety doesn't allow this when the only thing preventing people falling out is them looking whether there is a platform there or not, nor does it allow the driver or guard's Mk1 eyeball to determine which doors to release.

Common sense (for a member of the public) means if you plan to buy/use longer trains on routes with shorter platforms then you should plan and fund extending the platforms to suit the length of the train.

I know there are stations where physical constraints like tunnels would make platform lengthening extremely expensive in some cases. But those cases should be very rare exceptional uses of ASDO (until funding is available), rather than ASDO being used because it is seen as a way of avoiding infrastructure costs.

My post was in response to The Ham's suggestion that ASDO was a satisfactory alternative to station improvement work (in my view likely to be required as a result of stock cascades and route re-design facilitated by HS2).

Which goes to the point that if HS2 is about releasing capacity elsewhere then there needs to be a proper plan (and all the necessary funding) so ASDO isn't the 'go to' option instead of having platforms appropriate for the trains using them.

The aspiration ought to be having a modern railway - not just one with technology being used to fix unsafe Victorian-style practices.

 

[MarkyT]

Common sense (for a member of the public) means if you plan to buy/use longer trains on routes with shorter platforms then you should plan and fund extending the platforms to suit the length of the train.

I know there are stations where physical constraints like tunnels would make platform lengthening extremely expensive in some cases. But those cases should be very rare exceptional uses of ASDO (until funding is available), rather than ASDO being used because it is seen as a way of avoiding infrastructure costs.

My post was in response to The Ham's suggestion that ASDO was a satisfactory alternative to station improvement work (in my view likely to be required as a result of stock cascades and route re-design facilitated by HS2).

Which goes to the point that if HS2 is about releasing capacity elsewhere then there needs to be a proper plan (and all the necessary funding) so ASDO isn't the 'go to' option instead of having platforms appropriate for the trains using them.

The aspiration ought to be having a modern railway - not just one with technology being used to fix unsafe Victorian-style practices.

Except possibly at the extremities of a long route, where some minor stations have a very low usage compared to the more important towns and junctions en route.

 

[The Ham]

Common sense (for a member of the public) means if you plan to buy/use longer trains on routes with shorter platforms then you should plan and fund extending the platforms to suit the length of the train.

I know there are stations where physical constraints like tunnels would make platform lengthening extremely expensive in some cases. But those cases should be very rare exceptional uses of ASDO (until funding is available), rather than ASDO being used because it is seen as a way of avoiding infrastructure costs.

My post was in response to The Ham's suggestion that ASDO was a satisfactory alternative to station improvement work (in my view likely to be required as a result of stock cascades and route re-design facilitated by HS2).

Which goes to the point that if HS2 is about releasing capacity elsewhere then there needs to be a proper plan (and all the necessary funding) so ASDO isn't the 'go to' option instead of having platforms appropriate for the trains using them.

The aspiration ought to be having a modern railway - not just one with technology being used to fix unsafe Victorian-style practices.

In my post I said "especially if you provide ASDO at the quieter stations." Clearly I want suggesting that this would be done at every station, only the quieter stations.

If the long distance services only see 20 people board or alight from the busiest services then having 5 coaches at a platform, so 10 doors, would only see 2 people per door alight or join.

If you lengthened the platforms to take 10 coaches you'd hardly notice the difference, (1 per door rather than 2) as such why would you spend lots of money on extra platform lengths.

Even if passenger numbers were to double then you still wouldn't need to lengthen as you'd still be looking at 4 passengers boarding/alighting at each door.

That's still not going to impact on the ability of the trains to be able to load and unload within the time allowed.

A total of 20 passengers loading and unloading loading from each hourly service that's an annual passenger flow of about 200,000 passengers a year.

As such depending on what other services there are out could well be that any station with less than 1 million passengers doesn't justify platform lengthening.

As an example there's a local station to me which had 800,000 passengers a year which is limited to 8 coach trains but does see 12 coach trains. There's not a problem with that as the passenger flows are small enough that the numbers per door are low enough that loading/unloading is fast enough, even with some doors can see 8 people getting off at a time.

As such why would you extend the platform lengths for such small numbers?

Once you're up to 15 on the busiest services you'd probably justify longer platforms.

 

[Neen Sollars]

Media speculation that a final decision on HS2 is to be made by the govt. this week. I note that there are Transport Questions on Thursday 30th, so perhaps an announcement then. Whether HS2 phase 1 is cancelled in full or in part, or HS2 is to be built in the north first, I think any news will be accompanied by the green light for East West Rail Bicester to Bedford to proceed.

 

[PartyOperator]

Media speculation that a final decision on HS2 is to be made by the govt. this week. I note that there are Transport Questions on Thursday 30th, so perhaps an announcement then. Whether HS2 phase 1 is cancelled in full or in part, or HS2 is to be built in the north first, I think any news will be accompanied by the green light for East West Rail Bicester to Bedford to proceed.

If they're announcing the cancellation of any part of HS2, simultaneously giving the green light to a railway that is entirely within the South East of England would be extremely poor judgement.

 

[nimbus21]

With climate change now being of such alarming concern the government policy should be to take away the need to travel, especially daily commutes to work.

So the billions from HS2 should instead be invested so as to encourage jobs to move to the people rather than the other way around as presently. This would be achieved by regenerating northern towns, providing integrated local transport by bringing buses and trains back into public ownership and providing massive tax breaks to businesses to relocate.

There will be winners and losers with respect to property prices and wages. But there will be big gains for everybody as we see people having more free time, less congestion, less pollution, better health, more family time and a more equal and peaceful society.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they're announcing the cancellation of any part of HS2, simultaneously giving the green light to a railway that is entirely within the South East of England would be extremely poor judgement.

Why? If they don't give the SE something, even if that something is an hourly short DMU on a regional route, they'll lose votes hand over fist. There isn't much opposition to EWR as it's basically a reopening and isn't very expensive in a railway sense.

 

[PartyOperator]

Why? If they don't give the SE something, even if that something is an hourly short DMU on a regional route, they'll lose votes hand over fist. There isn't much opposition to EWR as it's basically a reopening and isn't very expensive in a railway sense.

They should do both, it would just be terrible PR to announce a new railway for the prosperous South East at the same time as cancelling the railway that the North and Midlands want - this would go completely against the 'levelling up' agenda. It would be perceived as a slap in the face, not a consolation prize.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They should do both, it would just be terrible PR to announce a new railway for the prosperous South East at the same time as cancelling the railway that the North and Midlands want - this would go completely against the 'levelling up' agenda. It would be perceived as a slap in the face, not a consolation prize.

Well, of course my view is that they should do HS2, EWR, NPR and the Castlefield work. But if they can HS2 and fund some Northern improvements they are also going to have to fund some SE improvements otherwise they'll have Home Counties commuter voters at their neck who will see the mess on the congested south WCML just get worse.

 

[matacaster]

If they're announcing the cancellation of any part of HS2, simultaneously giving the green light to a railway that is entirely within the South East of England would be extremely poor judgement.

Perhaps full electrification of mml through to Leeds (providing some extra capacity) by reopening the original mml between Sheffield and Leeds via Normanton which was abandoned (maybe lengthening trains too) and full electrification of transpennine route via Huddersfield would be a good start.

 

[matacaster]

Happy to agree with most of your post, not so sure about the efficacy of nationalisation though.

London sucks the life out of the rest of the country. They even took the best exhibits of the national photography museum in Bradford to London - the reason - more people will see it!!!! Bradford has few attractions - it desperately needs more not less.

 

[158756]

Well, of course my view is that they should do HS2, EWR, NPR and the Castlefield work. But if they can HS2 and fund some Northern improvements they are also going to have to fund some SE improvements otherwise they'll have Home Counties commuter voters at their neck who will see the mess on the congested south WCML just get worse.

But in the context of HS2 being cancelled, either in full or in (northern) part, it would be a PR disaster to announce any spending in the South East. Voters in the home counties won't be causing the government any grief because they support the cancellation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But in the context of HS2 being cancelled, either in full or in (northern) part, it would be a PR disaster to announce any spending in the South East. Voters in the home counties won't be causing the government any grief because they support the cancellation.

It depends what you mean by the Home Counties. There is a strong opposition in the Chilterns (south Bucks and north Oxon), but there are other parts of the Home Counties (and those seats are often more marginal than the safe Toryland of South Bucks). I'd expect you would see a fair bit of support in MK, particularly when you explain that it would mean the "Virgin" trains stopping again in the peaks - MKC commuters have never forgiven that, even though it did make operational sense to do it as things stand.

 

[158756]

It depends what you mean by the Home Counties. There is a strong opposition in the Chilterns (south Bucks and north Oxon), but there are other parts of the Home Counties (and those seats are often more marginal than the safe Toryland of South Bucks). I'd expect you would see a fair bit of support in MK, particularly when you explain that it would mean the "Virgin" trains stopping again in the peaks - MKC commuters have never forgiven that, even though it did make operational sense to do it as things stand.

Does the average voter in Milton Keynes think of it like that though, or like the rest of the country do they just see it as a way for wealthy businessmen to get to Birmingham 20 minutes faster?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does the average voter in Milton Keynes think of it like that though, or like the rest of the country do they just see it as a way for wealthy businessmen to get to Birmingham 20 minutes faster?

I think some get it and some don't. The biggest mistake in the history of HS2 is not calling it something like the "West Coast High Capacity Project" or somesuch.

 

[JonathanH]

But in the context of HS2 being cancelled, either in full or in (northern) part, it would be a PR disaster to announce any spending in the South East.

What, like the Croydon Area Remodelling Scheme? I don't notice anyone complaining about that money being spent in the south east.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

St Asaph ? Which closed in Septemberr 1955 ?

Why not build a new high-speed line branching from HS2 to Dublin following the A55? That'd put St Asaph back on the railway network, and hopefully make its city status make more sense!

 

[MarkyT]

Why not build a new high-speed line branching from HS2 to Dublin following the A55? That'd put St Asaph back on the railway network, and hopefully make its city status make more sense!

It could go over Boris's bridge. Sorry, scrub that. Wrong part of Ireland!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not build a new high-speed line branching from HS2 to Dublin following the A55? That'd put St Asaph back on the railway network, and hopefully make its city status make more sense!

Best run a high speed line to St David's too, they might get jealous otherwise!

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Best run a high speed line to St David's too, they might get jealous otherwise!

They'll probably be opposed to it cos it's entirely within a National Park would be a nice idea though!

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps full electrification of mml through to Leeds (providing some extra capacity) by reopening the original mml between Sheffield and Leeds via Normanton which was abandoned (maybe lengthening trains too)

1. The southern part of the line between Sheffield and Normanton was shut for good reason - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...izarre-service-in-the-uk.117321/#post-2208065 - it wouldn't be cheap to open it and It wouldn't be a speedy route. Moreover, going via Sheffield is not a competitive route to Leeds from London.

2. There are already proposals to maximise the length of peak trains on the MML. Electrification will not provide materially quicker services.

 

[miami]

With climate change now being of such alarming concern the government policy should be to take away the need to travel, especially daily commutes to work.

Easy, just cancel season tickets. Make sure that someone traveling 5 days a week pays 5 times as much as someone traveling once a week.

That gives a financial incentive to commute less.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Easy, just cancel season tickets. Make sure that someone traveling 5 days a week pays 5 times as much as someone traveling once a week.

That gives a financial incentive to commute less.

I don't think individuals need any incentive to commute less (and due to high cost of living moving to London isn't an option). Is there a single commuter who actively likes it? More likely to solve that problem would be doing something to encourage or mandate employers (where it is feasible, and that feasibility perhaps not being decided by the employer themselves but objectively based on the role) to allow home-working on at least one or two days a week.

 

[Meerkat]

I don't think individuals need any incentive to commute less (and due to high cost of living moving to London isn't an option). Is there a single commuter who actively likes it? More likely to solve that problem would be doing something to encourage or mandate employers (where it is feasible, and that feasibility perhaps not being decided by the employer themselves but objectively based on the role) to allow home-working on at least one or two days a week.

Better have a days quota system to stop it all being Monday’s and Fridays!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Better have a days quota system to stop it all being Monday’s and Fridays!

One option would be to offer a variety of 3-day season tickets, with those including Monday and Friday plus one other day being a lot cheaper than other combinations. Though I actually quite like going into the office on a Friday, it's lovely and quiet.

 

[matacaster]

1. The southern part of the line between Sheffield and Normanton was shut for good reason - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...izarre-service-in-the-uk.117321/#post-2208065 - it wouldn't be cheap to open it and It wouldn't be a speedy route. Moreover, going via Sheffield is not a competitive route to Leeds from London.

2. There are already proposals to maximise the length of peak trains on the MML. Electrification will not provide materially quicker services.

But its mainly about capacity!
The route from Wakefield to Doncaster is 2 track and full. Reopening the old mml route provides extra capacity and resilience. Whilst the journey time might be uncompetitive with other rail, I used to happily take the mml service because it was cheaper and not rammed prior to getting to Sheffield. Perhaps when saying a route would be uncompetitive you should consider that the real competition is the car and coach both of which it is competitive with.

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps when saying a route would be uncompetitive you should consider that the real competition is the car and coach both of which it is competitive with.

Yes, but some routes would be uncompetitive and lose the railway money.

 

[Meerkat]

One option would be to offer a variety of 3-day season tickets, with those including Monday and Friday plus one other day being a lot cheaper than other combinations. Though I actually quite like going into the office on a Friday, it's lovely and quiet.

Taking a Wednesday off was good as you basically had two very short weeks

 

[Bletchleyite]

Taking a Wednesday off was good as you basically had two very short weeks

Yeah, I think I'd favour that.