Why are prams/buggies allowed on the tube/NCL but not full size bikes ?

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choochoochoo

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The deep tunnel ban applies to full size bikes but not prams/buggies. However, don't they both pose the same risk on an underground train ?
 
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The Ham

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The deep tunnel ban applies to full size bikes but not prams/buggies. However, don't they both pose the same risk on an underground train ?

(Mods, Feel free to move this thread to the underground forum if needed)

Buggies are supposed to be folded to be carried on the escalators, which means that they shouldn't be much more of a problem than an umbrella.

There's also the fact that for most tube trips out is likely to be faster to cycle it anyway and that the numbers using buggies tend to be fairly limited, however probably the big factor is how do you tell if a shall child does or doesn't have a disability. If buggies were to be band you'd find lots of parents tempted to just claim their child had a disability and you can imagine the backlash if tube staff refused travel to a child with a disability.

As such it's easier and less of a problem just to let buggies by carried on the tube network.
 

telstarbox

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The envelope of an adult bike is about the same size as a crowd control barrier - they would really get in the way on a deep tube train, especially if an evacuation is required.
 
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Buggies are supposed to be folded to be carried on the escalators, which means that they shouldn't be much more of a problem than an umbrella.

There's also the fact that for most tube trips out is likely to be faster to cycle it anyway and that the numbers using buggies tend to be fairly limited, however probably the big factor is how do you tell if a shall child does or doesn't have a disability. If buggies were to be band you'd find lots of parents tempted to just claim their child had a disability and you can imagine the backlash if tube staff refused travel to a child with a disability.

As such it's easier and less of a problem just to let buggies by carried on the tube network.

There would be (rightful) outrage if you said that parents with young children couldn't use the tube to go out for the day, or shopping, which a ban on buggies is tantamount to. I assume full carriage prams are banned, but who uses them anymore anyway.
 

Dstock7080

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http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-conditions-of-carriage.pdf
page 22 refers:

You may bring with you:
- personal luggage that you are able to carry yourself (including on stairs)
9. Taking luggage, animals and bicycles with you:
- folding buggies/pushchairs and folded bicycles that you are able to carry yourself (including on stairs)
- any other item, provided it is not dangerous or likely to injure anyone.
- You can take a buggy/pushchair with you on any line at any time, including on moving escalators. If you have a double or tandem buggy/pushchair, you must fold it before using a moving escalator. If it cannot be folded, you must not use a moving escalator.
- You can take a folded bicycle with you on any line at all times. Note that a folded bicycle can have wheels of any size. Find out more about taking your bicycle on our services at tfl.gov.uk/modes/cycling/cycling-in-london/bikes-on-public-transport
- You can also take an unfolded bicycle with you, but only on the sections of line shown below, and not between 0730 and 0930 or 1600 and 1900 on Mondays to Fridays (except public holidays). -
- You cannot take an unfolded bicycle on a moving escalator.
.
 

choochoochoo

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Thanks for the replies. So prams and larger unfolded buggies are as big an obstruction in an evacuation as a bike, it's just it would be too discriminating to blanket ban buggies/prams because of their users need ?

I was on a packed rush hour tube yesterday and someone got on with pram and I did wonder how folk would get past if there had been a need to evacuate.

Although if those people stood/seated in the priority seating/wheelchair area actually vacated that space, then I'm thinking it wouldn't pose so much of an obstruction as it does in the doorway area. But good luck getting people to give up their seats for a buggy/pram.
 

AM9

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Now I'm wondering what counts as 'folding' a Penny Farthing...
Folding cycles in the context of carry on luggage is usually intended to mean those that approximate a large suitcase, i.e. genuine folding cycles like Bromptons and Dahons are small enough to be carried up and down stairs and onto crowded trains (provided any soiled parts are covered). Just because a cycle folds somewhere (not thinking that your penny farthing comment was meant to be serious) doesn't mean that it is reasonable at all times and may be subject to a challenge by staff, (or even other passengers).
 
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Taunton

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But good luck getting people to give up their seats for a buggy/pram.
Having used the DLR (tip-up seats/wheelchair/buggy) right through "that era", I can assure you they do.

I'm sure the same would happen for wheelchairs, although I've never actually seen one on the DLR when busy.
 

BJames

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Thanks for the replies. So prams and larger unfolded buggies are as big an obstruction in an evacuation as a bike, it's just it would be too discriminating to blanket ban buggies/prams because of their users need ?

I was on a packed rush hour tube yesterday and someone got on with pram and I did wonder how folk would get past if there had been a need to evacuate.

Although if those people stood/seated in the priority seating/wheelchair area actually vacated that space, then I'm thinking it wouldn't pose so much of an obstruction as it does in the doorway area. But good luck getting people to give up their seats for a buggy/pram.
Having used the DLR (tip-up seats/wheelchair/buggy) right through "that era", I can assure you they do.

I'm sure the same would happen for wheelchairs, although I've never actually seen one on the DLR when busy.
Can't speak for the DLR, but nobody on any tube I have got on in recent times has got up for someone in a pram to use that space. People have got up for wheelchairs though. I just don't sit in that area to be honest usually.
 

Ianno87

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Can't speak for the DLR, but nobody on any tube I have got on in recent times has got up for someone in a pram to use that space. People have got up for wheelchairs though. I just don't sit in that area to be honest usually.

The space on the Victoria line is specifically earmarked as priority for wheelchair users *and* buggies.
 

jon0844

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At least many tube trains have stickers/signs saying to move for buggies, so it should be possible for someone to point to the sign if any passenger is unwilling to move. They'll be in tip-down seats, so should be aware that they might have to move already.
 

spinba11

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The space on the Victoria line is specifically earmarked as priority for wheelchair users *and* buggies.
the spaces in cars 4 and 5 are for wheelchairs the spaces in other 6 cars are for prams due to the fact that level boarding it provided for cars 4 and 5.
 

telstarbox

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Regretting taking my bike in the DLR yesterday (which is permitted) - you have to hover by the doors, platforms are on different sides or both at Canary Wharf, and the tight turns make it challenging to stay upright...
 

rebmcr

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Regretting taking my bike in the DLR yesterday (which is permitted) - you have to hover by the doors, platforms are on different sides or both at Canary Wharf, and the tight turns make it challenging to stay upright...

The bits near the articulation section are your best bet, you can hold your bike while sat in one of the tip-up seats too if it's not full and busy (and it shouldn't be during the bike-permitted hours)
 

philthetube

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Thanks for the replies. So prams and larger unfolded buggies are as big an obstruction in an evacuation as a bike, it's just it would be too discriminating to blanket ban buggies/prams because of their users need ?

I was on a packed rush hour tube yesterday and someone got on with pram and I did wonder how folk would get past if there had been a need to evacuate.

Although if those people stood/seated in the priority seating/wheelchair area actually vacated that space, then I'm thinking it wouldn't pose so much of an obstruction as it does in the doorway area. But good luck getting people to give up their seats for a buggy/pram.

Surprised anyone with an unfolded pram could get on a packed train.

If a train was being evacuated, not on to a platform, then an unfolded buggy would have to be folded or left on the train, it would not be possible to do anything else. Assistance would be given to the parent/guardian.

If there was no danger they would probably be asked to remain on the train until the last.
 

jon0844

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As we see from plane evacuations without a care about those delayed behind, people would take all their stuff. Some parents would possibly insist on getting off first with their buggy intact!
 

simple simon

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The text below comes from this link: http://citytransport.info/Biker.htm (my website)
Only edited highlights copied here.

Simon

------------------------------------------------------

Cyclists often complain that they would like to be able to take their bicycles with them when they travel by public transport so that having arrived at their destination they can complete their journey on two wheels.

In Britain the attitudes held by many transport operators seems to be:-
  1. Since bicycles are already a mode of transport it is crazy to want to convey them on another mode of transport.
  2. Whereas other "people with special needs" have no choice when they leave home whether to take their "special needs" with them cyclists are not a mobility-impaired disadvantaged group - indeed the physical exertion of cycling often makes them the fittest, most agile people in society.
  3. If asked to pay a special cycle fare the cyclists would complain most vociferously, yet too often do not appreciate how large cycles take up space which could be used by 3-4 standing fare paying passengers.
  4. Cycles usually have dirty tyres, oily chains, etc which can cause soiling damage to internal furnishings and other passengers' clothing.
  5. As it is not a legal obligation very few cyclists bother with obtaining insurance - even 3rd party - and in the event of an incident it is probable that they and other passengers would be seeking compensation from the transport operators' insurers, which would affect premiums, operating costs and ultimately fares.
  6. The widespread reduction in road speed limits (to 20mph / 30km/h) which is being done as a result of vociferous lobbying by pro-cycling advocacy groups who claim that this will make cycling on roads safer also means that the slower bus and tram journeys will result in it being faster for cyclists to cycle the whole way. Many of the other passengers who fully understand the issues will also resent the fact that their journeys have been made slower and longer just to please the small minority who have their own two-wheeled transports.
 

Mojo

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As we see from plane evacuations without a care about those delayed behind, people would take all their stuff. Some parents would possibly insist on getting off first with their buggy intact!
Unlike an emergency evacuation on an aeroplane, the most likely thing to occur on a train would be for the detrainment to occur via the train cabs (bear in mind that LU trains don’t have emergency egress from inside, except via the cabs, so unless staff have opened the side doors people aren’t leaving by them) and thus would be overseen by staff. I have witnessed a stalled train detrainment with a pushchair and it was not physically possible for it to fit out via the cab, so the customer was asked to wait until the end and detrain themselves via the cab, after which staff opened the side doors and lifted the pram down.
 

telstarbox

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The text below comes from this link: http://citytransport.info/Biker.htm (my website)
Only edited highlights copied here.

Simon

------------------------------------------------------

Cyclists often complain that they would like to be able to take their bicycles with them when they travel by public transport so that having arrived at their destination they can complete their journey on two wheels.

In Britain the attitudes held by many transport operators seems to be:-
  1. Since bicycles are already a mode of transport it is crazy to want to convey them on another mode of transport.
  2. Whereas other "people with special needs" have no choice when they leave home whether to take their "special needs" with them cyclists are not a mobility-impaired disadvantaged group - indeed the physical exertion of cycling often makes them the fittest, most agile people in society.
  3. If asked to pay a special cycle fare the cyclists would complain most vociferously, yet too often do not appreciate how large cycles take up space which could be used by 3-4 standing fare paying passengers.
  4. Cycles usually have dirty tyres, oily chains, etc which can cause soiling damage to internal furnishings and other passengers' clothing.
  5. As it is not a legal obligation very few cyclists bother with obtaining insurance - even 3rd party - and in the event of an incident it is probable that they and other passengers would be seeking compensation from the transport operators' insurers, which would affect premiums, operating costs and ultimately fares.
  6. The widespread reduction in road speed limits (to 20mph / 30km/h) which is being done as a result of vociferous lobbying by pro-cycling advocacy groups who claim that this will make cycling on roads safer also means that the slower bus and tram journeys will result in it being faster for cyclists to cycle the whole way. Many of the other passengers who fully understand the issues will also resent the fact that their journeys have been made slower and longer just to please the small minority who have their own two-wheeled transports.
Re point 3, a good number of cyclists will use trains at weekends purely to get to or from a riding opportunity - which is revenue the railway wouldn't otherwise get.
 

jopsuk

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On point 2, many people I know are, erm, less fit and able than general population, and use their bikes as a mobility aid. With the rise of e-bikes this will become more common. They're often happy to take a four-six mile ride, but wouldn't be happy with, say, a 20 mile ride.

But then I've also no problem with the current restrictions on the Underground.
 
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