Why are so many trains in a mostly white livery these days?

[JB_B]

At an outside air temperature of -54C why would an aircraft have to worry about overheating ? Have you felt your luggage just after it's come out of the cargo hold ? There is no need to be reflecting heat.

In fact modern planes pump their fuel through fuel/engine oil heat exchanger to warm it up. Too much heat is definitely not a problem for subsonic flight. (I believe it was a problem for concorde though)

In flight, I can well believe it wouldn't be a problem. What about when you're stuck on the ground in direct sunlight - especially near the equator ( with insolation > 1kW/m^2 ) ? Then I'd have thought that the albedo of the exposed parts of your airframe could be an issue.

 

[choochoochoo]

In flight, I can well believe it wouldn't be a problem. What about when you're stuck on the ground in direct sunlight - especially near the equator ( with insolation > 1kW/m^2 ) ? Then I'd have thought that the albedo of the exposed parts of your airframe could be an issue.

Planes are primarily designed for where they spend the majority of their life - In the sky.

The time on the ground when they are not making money is not a problem/priority. Especially since as soon as the engines start the air con kicks in. And even when the engines are off, you can feed aircon into an aircraft from a shore supply cable.

Heat really isn't a problem for aircraft except for perhaps high outside air temperatures that may reduce air density and affect take off performance. Or if you have to slam on emergency brakes. Then it may take a good while for them to cool if you're somewhere a bit toasty.

 

[Welly]

All over white train liveries makes excellent canvas for graffiti - maybe this is the plan?

 

[AM9]

And white covered in vinyl is of course heavier than a painted livery applied on bare metal.

But unles the old TOC's livery happens to coincide with the aspirations of the new, the next livery can be two coats of paint, so that may weigh more than a vinyled plain white base coat.

 

[greatvoyager]

I suppose white also allows for lots of colour options for doors to be PRM compliant.

 

[Rail Blues]

BR Blue and Grey was the very epitome of design

I'd actually be very hard pressed to describe any livery of the last few decades, it's a complete cacophony of noisy dog's breakfasts, to butcher a couple of metaphors!

BR Blue and Grey, looked dreadfully dreary with a coat of grime on it. Plus with disability regs, requiring doors to be a distinct colour, colour schemes with a continuous centre band don't work.

I too would rather not revisit a 55 year old livery. Whatever form it takes, I would rather the railways looked forward not back.

 

[CBlue]

BR Blue and Grey, looked dreadfully dreary with a coat of grime on it. Plus with disability regs, requiring doors to be a distinct colour, colour schemes with a continuous centre band don't work.

I too would rather not revisit a 55 year old livery. Whatever form it takes, I would rather the railways looked forward not back.

Not sure it's the best idea, no.

There does seem to be a recollection, rightly or wrongly, of the BR days being those of the "British Rail Sandwich" and "Self-loading freight"
I don't think anyone really wants that perception back in the public mind.

 

[Mikey C]

Who actually chose the livery for Thameslink and the Great Northern, as it's desperately dull?

Fortunately the Southern side hasn't had to follow suit

The Southeastern 375s look so much better in blue than they did in the previous white livery, as would the 376s and Networkers if they were ever repainted

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Aren't SWR's fleet (apart from those non-refurbished in SWT white intercity livery) more light grey than white?

 

[Lucan]

the doors have to be a distinct and separate colour to the vehicle body to aid people with reduced vision

Surely it is no longer an issue with automatic doors, when the colour goes out of sight when they open. The big holes in the side of the train are what to aim for. And if the push button is needed, it is that that should be highlighted, not the whole door.

white liveries tend to show dirt more prominently than more elaborate colours

I understand that was the logic behind the old (BR) blood-and custard and (GWR) chocolate-and-cream liveries. The lower body side gets the worst dirt which tends to contain red-brown rust from braking dust.

I too would rather not revisit a 55 year old livery. Whatever form it takes, I would rather the railways looked forward not back.

Most people today will be unaware of what a 55yo livery looked like, so it would not be a matter of looking back, but of choosing the best livery now, and there are only a limited number of basic colours. I liked the short-lived "Jaffa cake" livery, basically chocolate and cream with an orange highlight, although I would reverse it and put the chocolate on the lower panels. AFAIR Chris Green (chairman of Network SE) changed to the ugly and cheap looking red-white-and blue "toothpaste" livery. I'm sure the man was colour-blind.

 

[Rail Blues]

Surely it is no longer an issue with automatic doors, when the colour goes out of sight when they open. The big holes in the side of the train are what to aim for. And if the push button is needed, it is that that should be highlighted, not the whole door.


I understand that was the logic behind the old (BR) blood-and custard and (GWR) chocolate-and-cream liveries. The lower body side gets the worst dirt which tends to contain red-brown rust from braking dust.


Most people today will be unaware of what a 55yo livery looked like, so it would not be a matter of looking back, but of choosing the best livery now, and there are only a limited number of basic colours. I liked the short-lived "Jaffa cake" livery, basically chocolate and cream with an orange highlight, although I would reverse it and put the chocolate on the lower panels. AFAIR Chris Green (chairman of Network SE) changed to the ugly and cheap looking red-white-and blue "toothpaste" livery. I'm sure the man was colour-blind.

I don't think a very dated and blocky livery is the best livery for now just to satisfy a handful of enthusiasts. It doesn't suit modern aerodynamic rolling stock. It's one step removed from the folk who wanted fake teak vinyls on the LNER Azumas.

As for the point as regards door colour, as travellers with reduced vision have told me, contrasting doors are a big help in knowing where to position yourself. If it wasn't useful or necessary they wouldn't be included in the regulations. Anyway, regardless of what we think, contrasting doors are here to stay, so any livery has to take account of this.

 

[Davester50]

Bare metal would be cheaper than paint. But the washing/maintenance needed for bare metal would cost more than the weight saving over a painted airframe.

Good luck with finding a modern metal airliner.

 

[choochoochoo]

Good luck with finding a modern metal airliner.

True but composite would also benefit from paint protection.

 

[MikeWM]

Cambridge was very, very boringly almost all 'white' for a while, with white GN 365s and 387s, white TL 700s and white GA 317s and 379s. Only the XC 170s broke up the monotony.

At least the new GA trains add a bit of variety back into the mix.

 

[HarryL]

Aren't most liveries now white as the DfT heavily push for it? It's also a lot more economical for operators, the early days of privatisation when they all wanted their corporate branding plastered all over has thankfully mostly fizzled out and all white makes it cheaper to change the branding when they change hands.

 

[PeterY]

I've noticed especially on London Transports S8's the white colour is beginning to look a rather muddy white now. IMO White doesn't stay pure white for long.

 

[Mikey C]

Aren't most liveries now white as the DfT heavily push for it? It's also a lot more economical for operators, the early days of privatisation when they all wanted their corporate branding plastered all over has thankfully mostly fizzled out and all white makes it cheaper to change the branding when they change hands.

There seems no consistency on this though, with Avanti and SWR for example bringing in new liveries on taking over franchises

 

[HarryL]

There seems no consistency on this though, with Avanti and SWR for example bringing in new liveries on taking over franchises

Avanti is a good example of the governments push, Virgin were made to get rid of their silver livery and go with white and vinyls to make it easier to rebrand in the future, hence why on the pendolinos Avanti have had a fairly easy time doing it. SWR I don't know as much about, it does seem like the governments push failed on them for whatever reason.

The best example I can find of the DfTs all white desire failing is GWR, where the trains that were ordered by the government were delivered in white and attempts were made to get them to stick with that, ultimately leading to the full body vinyls on those units instead to match the First-ordered painted ones.

 

[py_megapixel]

SWR I don't know as much about, it does seem like the governments push failed on them for whatever reason.

It may seem that way, but SWR's original plan was for a more elaborate - and entirely vinyl - livery involving a subtle stripe effect across the entire livery and, on the lighter section, what appears to be a slightly darker blue than is currently in use. Either the DfT or a desire to cut costs (possibly both) convinced them to go with a cheaper paint-based livery with what to me seems more of a sort of white with a slight blue tint, and solid rather than striped.

A few 159s and possibly a Desiro or two were done in the striped version before the change if you're interested.

TOCs with a base white livery with coloured doors (excluding temporary liveries):

Northern, TfW (plus Thameslink/GN if pale grey is close enough to white to fit the definition). Can't think of any more.

It's not exactly extensive.

ScotRail inter7city.
Chiltern.
SWR (apart from the few units that were painted before they ditched the stripes)

More tenuously, Southern and Greater Anglia, though theirs have a bit more variation

 

[Mikey C]

It may seem that way, but SWR's original plan was for a more elaborate - and entirely vinyl - livery involving a subtle stripe effect across the entire livery and, on the lighter section, what appears to be a slightly darker blue than is currently in use. Either the DfT or a desire to cut costs (possibly both) convinced them to go with a cheaper paint-based livery with what to me seems more of a sort of white with a slight blue tint, and solid rather than striped.

A few 159s and possibly a Desiro or two were done in the striped version before the change if you're interested.


ScotRail inter7city.
Chiltern.
SWR (apart from the few units that were painted before they ditched the stripes)

More tenuously, Southern and Greater Anglia, though theirs have a bit more variation

Chiltern also significant amounts of grey (Mainline) or blue (commuter)

 

[Goldfish62]

It may seem that way, but SWR's original plan was for a more elaborate - and entirely vinyl - livery involving a subtle stripe effect across the entire livery and, on the lighter section, what appears to be a slightly darker blue than is currently in use. Either the DfT or a desire to cut costs (possibly both) convinced them to go with a cheaper paint-based livery with what to me seems more of a sort of white with a slight blue tint, and solid rather than striped.

At the time of the switch from vinyl to paint it was stated that this was due to the difficulty in matching up the stripes on the vinyl sheets. Painting is more expensive, but more durable and with only a glance at the few striped units the vertical edges of the individual vinyl sheets are very evident.

 

[43096]

At the time of the switch from vinyl to paint it was stated that this was due to the difficulty in matching up the stripes on the vinyl sheets. Painting is more expensive, but more durable and with only a glance at the few striped units the vertical edges of the individual vinyl sheets are very evident.

As the units required paintwork attention they would need a base coat of paint before applying the vinyls, which would presumably be more expensive. Paint is always better than vinyl in any case.

 

[Goldfish62]

As the units required paintwork attention they would need a base coat of paint before applying the vinyls, which would presumably be more expensive. Paint is always better than vinyl in any case.

Looking at videos of trains being wrapped it's not a complete paint job by any means. The bodywork is washed and degreased, then any areas which require repair are filled and undercoated using a roller. Then the vinyl is applied.

It looks like a four car train can be wrapped in 2-3 days whereas repaints take well over double that time. The fact that labour is always the largest cost element means that a full repaint will always be more expensive than a wrap.

 

[Inversnecky]

Presumably it’s easier and cheaper to rebrand a train by stripping off the vinyl, clean up, and new vinyl on, than a repaint.

 

[Davester50]

I vaguely remember reading many years ago the painting of the then new Network SouthEast livery took so many days longer than the previous blue and grey.