Why are the doors so slow on desiros?

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seiryuu

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my local station is feltham so i get a mixture or 450s and 458s for reading or Windsor ER.

One thing that I've noticed with the 458, despite it being slightly older, is that once the doors are released by the guard, they'll open instantly with the press of the button.

On the other hand the 450s and the 444s have a considerable delay with their opening. They make you feel like you've just opened an airlock! :lol:

Does anyone else notice this too? It seems like a step backwards in technology, even if it isn't the biggest of issues.
 
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TheJRB

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I know this has come up before. The doors on the 395s take a noticeable amount of time to open too. I believe this is because of the pressure sealing (or something similar) that is released when the doors are released. Indeed you can sometimes sense people getting a little impatient behind you as though they think you haven't pressed the button!
 

MarkyMarkD

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I can second that. 395 doors are the slowest I have ever experienced. It's lucky the routes are - at least for part of their journeys - limited stop as otherwise they would be slower than non-HS1 trains simply due to the vast time waiting for doors to open.
 

MK Tom

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I've had people on 350s ask me why I haven't pressed the button yet and usually it lights up and goes ''pong pong pong'' just at that moment. I seem to remember reading they're so slow that 321s actually had notably quicker dispatch times?
 

Urban Gateline

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The dispatch method sometimes makes it slower too, as the Guard has to first open either the local or cab door (which doesn't even open fully, has to be manuallly pushed according to a Guard) and step onto the platform to check that the whole train is accomodated in the platform and then step back into the train to release the doors, so on a Desiro train stopping at a curved platform for example, this can seem to take forever as the Guard might have to step far onto the platform to see the whole train!

The doors are pretty slow to open even when the button is lit up, this is duplicated when they are closed so it adds to dwell times at stations, higher dwell than older units like 455's or 458's!
 

HSTEd

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Cl390 doors take years to open.

Why can't they have doors that open like Mark 4 doors do? ie. really quickly.
 

LE Greys

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Cl390 doors take years to open.

Why can't they have doors that open like Mark 4 doors do? ie. really quickly.
MkIVs aren't pressure-sealed. Standing in the vestibule in Welwyn North Tunnel can demonstrate that very effectively. Mind you, it helps that you can lean on the button waiting for it to release rather than having to wait for it to light up. Only a second or so, though.
 

asylumxl

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MkIVs aren't pressure-sealed. Standing in the vestibule in Welwyn North Tunnel can demonstrate that very effectively. Mind you, it helps that you can lean on the button waiting for it to release rather than having to wait for it to light up. Only a second or so, though.
Plus the 390s have their retracting steps which need to be down/up, further adding to dwell.
 
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I know this has come up before. The doors on the 395s take a noticeable amount of time to open too. I believe this is because of the pressure sealing (or something similar) that is released when the doors are released. Indeed you can sometimes sense people getting a little impatient behind you as though they think you haven't pressed the button!
Also I think the 395s are DOO too, hence a sometimes slightly longer delay.

But the information about the pressure being released is indeed correct.
 

HSTEd

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Shouldn't pressure release be tied to the speedo so the doors release as the train rolls to a stop?
 

seiryuu

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Are Desiros capable of DOO or would they need modification?
The controls are all available as the guard often uses the empty drivers compartment on the 450s, the only modification might be the door controls, because the driver would need to get up and turn around to reach the button, or practice yoga on his breaks:lol:
 

SprinterMan

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How does pressure-sealing work?
I thought all plug doors were pressure-sealed and all sliding doors weren't, but apparently that's wrong, as 395s have pressure-sealed sliding doors and 442s have non pressure-sealed plug doors (ok, bad example, 442s have swing-plug doors, but as said earlier Mark 4s also fall into this category, which really surprises me).
 

Goldfish62

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The controls are all available as the guard often uses the empty drivers compartment on the 450s, the only modification might be the door controls, because the driver would need to get up and turn around to reach the button, or practice yoga on his breaks:lol:
On the Desiros there door controls on the driver's desk, but I think are isolated. However, on the 458s are believe they can be used. SWT should surely go over to the driver releasing the doors, with the guard closing them, as is normal modern practice here and across Europe. Surely the driver is best placed to see that the train is on the platform.
 

LE Greys

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How does pressure-sealing work?
I thought all plug doors were pressure-sealed and all sliding doors weren't, but apparently that's wrong, as 395s have pressure-sealed sliding doors and 442s have non pressure-sealed plug doors (ok, bad example, 442s have swing-plug doors, but as said earlier Mark 4s also fall into this category, which really surprises me).
The idea is a bit like a plug in a barrell, the door itself is slightly wedge-shaped and larger than the doorway. It is then held tightly against the seal. A much more heavy-duty version is seen on airliners.
 
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Are Desiros capable of DOO or would they need modification?
Our 360/2s on Heathrow Connect are used on DOO services, so I don't see why the other versions of the Desiro family would be different.

The controls are all available as the guard often uses the empty drivers compartment on the 450s, the only modification might be the door controls, because the driver would need to get up and turn around to reach the button, or practice yoga on his breaks:lol:
In each of the cabs are two GOPs (Guard Operated Panels) next to the cab doors. There are also buttons to the left of the driver's seat and on the right hand side of the desk. Each set of buttons controls the doors on the corresponding side of the train. In the default setting, the doors can be controlled anywhere on the train (including the unoccupied cabs or at the guard's panels beside the doors themselves. However there is a switch operated by a t-key on each panel to isolate the other panels from use.

On Heathrow Connect the driver will normally activate the guard's panel behind his seat on entering the cab to ensure that only the control panels in the leading cab are activated and only the driver can release / close the doors.

Hope this helps,
Paul.
 

TEW

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On the Desiros there door controls on the driver's desk, but I think are isolated. However, on the 458s are believe they can be used. SWT should surely go over to the driver releasing the doors, with the guard closing them, as is normal modern practice here and across Europe. Surely the driver is best placed to see that the train is on the platform.
It seems very unlikely that SWT would go over to drivers releasing the doors. Quite rightly they are very big on guards leaving the train first and ensuring the whole train is platformed, more so than any other TOC in my experience. The guard getting out of the train and physically checking is surely the safest method, it is easy for the driver to mistake a 12 carriage train for an 8 carriage train, pull up at the wrong stop mark and release the doors. The guard in theory prevents that by checking the train is on the platform.
 

Electrostar

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Thanks all for the info. Interesting stuff.

Picking up on the last point of SWT not moving to DOO, I thought the SWT current franchise requirement insists on guards. During its early years SWT learnt the hard way after losing too many drivers and fighting a spate of industrial action. I got the feeling since that no one was spoiling for a fight. However the recent recommendations to government (and a very different government than the last) of the railways running with fewer staff made me wonder if the guards on SWT suburban services might be in their sights. At some point someone will look at all the other DOO suburban services out of London and ask why SWT is different. Even BBC London TV news showed footage of Desiros when reporting on the recommendations, although they didn't mention SWT so it could be a coincidence as few broadcasters or newspapers know the difference between one train and another.

Btw not in anyway agreeing with the recommendations, just suggesting where we may see a proposal and how the technology involved could help or hinder the arguments.
 

talltim

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I'm pretty certain the pressure sealing on Voyagers/Meridians is speed activated, you can hear it acting as the train speeds up and slows down. Just a rough estimate, but I would say it happens at about 5-10mph
 

BestWestern

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On the Desiros there door controls on the driver's desk, but I think are isolated. However, on the 458s are believe they can be used. SWT should surely go over to the driver releasing the doors, with the guard closing them, as is normal modern practice here and across Europe. Surely the driver is best placed to see that the train is on the platform.
No, not at all. If a Driver makes an error and stops short, as sometimes happens, he is highly likely to release the doors before he realises his mistake, with potentially very serious consequences. This is why the Guard being responsible for door release is a far safer method of working, as there is a requirement to physically look and see how the train is positioned, whereas a Driver on a DOO train will simply stop and hit the buttons. The risk of stopping short is far higher on services operated with multiple units where the formations can vary during the day or depending on stock availability. In SWT's case, a Desiro can run as a four or five car set in any formation up to twelve cars, a lot of potential variation. Far safer for the Guard to do it, plus the Driver gets time to grab a coffee from the catering trolley! ;)
 
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