Why are there no ticket inspectors on national rail trains coming into london?

[Mojo]

Do they? I have never been asked for a ticket on LU and I certainly haven't on the buses for several years, and I use both regularly.

Do you have a ticket that requires manual inspection? The majority of LU inspectors' shifts are undertaken in plain clothes, monitoring station gatelines.
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N.B. Indeed, West Brompton has barriers ALTHOUGH it's also got a passage way with NO barriers where people can get on and off the overground platforms quite easily. The barriers are for the underground services.

There is no exit from the Overground platforms to street unless you pass through the gateline. On busy days or during special events such as football at Fulham Broadway the gate on the Overground footbridge is opened meaning that you don't have to pass through the gateline.

 

[Antman]

Isn't it more worrying to not have a clue who is an inspector? We all see those who spend most of their journey looking out for uniformed staff (and, as expected, quickly move if they see them). Not so easy when the person sitting next to you jumps into action - especially if you're with someone else and was stupid enough to discuss your ticketing arrangements.

Yes I see your point but it's probably not very cost effective to have RPI's sat doing nothing for long periods of time just to catch the occasional fare dodger?

 

[Crossover]

I'm also surprised plain clothed inspectors aren't more common on TOCs in the UK. They use them on the buses/trams/underground here in Munich, the system is completely without barriers. The doors close and they present their IDs. I've seen them in various forms, three older ladies with shopping bags, three guys dressed like tourists. Rather amusing!

Not just Munich - have seen similar in other parts of Germany too. Stuttgart springs to mind

Interesting idea that seems to be effective. That said, Germany tends to work in an honour system - hardly any (if any at all) barriers. Risk at your peril - getting caught can lead to some hefty penalties I believe

 

[TEW]

I'm also surprised plain clothed inspectors aren't more common on TOCs in the UK. They use them on the buses/trams/underground here in Munich, the system is completely without barriers. The doors close and they present their IDs. I've seen them in various forms, three older ladies with shopping bags, three guys dressed like tourists. Rather amusing!

I know at SWT plain clothes inspectors are used quite a bit. Generally they way they work though, most fare paying passengers wouldn't know they were there. I imagine other TOCs use plain clothes operations too, it's just that you might not always realise it.

 

[Mojo]

Yes I see your point but it's probably not very cost effective to have RPI's sat doing nothing for long periods of time just to catch the occasional fare dodger?

I'm not quite sure what you are assuming plain clothes Inspectors are doing? When working on trains they are checking in exactly the same way that uniformed staff are, and when working on the gateline are checking in exactly the same way that uniformed staff are.

 

[GodAtum]

I'd like more 1st class checks by Southern during peak times, especially the 0731 from East Croydon - Victoria.

 

[Envy123]

I have traveled from New Southgate to Moorgate for the past year and I only had my Oyster card inspected 3 times.

So, it's not that there are no ticket checks, they just seem rather rare to me. Or maybe it's because it's a less lucrative inner suburban route?

 

[WestCoast]

I'm not really sure what the advantage is of plain clothed RPI's, surely the whole point is that they stand out and hopefully deter fare evasion just as uniformed security staff in supermarkets hopefully deter shoplifting?

Having a mixture of uniformed and plain-clothed staff is surely the best solution? In the Munich example I used, they have highly visible security staff roving around, in addition to plain-clothed ticket inspectors. One provides the visible deterrent, the other the element of surprise. If I were a fare dodger, I'd be more worried about those I can't spot a mile off. I realise not everyone would think this way though.

 

[Antman]

Having a mixture of uniformed and plain-clothed staff is surely the best solution? In the Munich example I used, they have highly visible security staff roving around, in addition to plain-clothed ticket inspectors. One provides the visible deterrent, the other the element of surprise. If I were a fare dodger, I'd be more worried about those I can't spot a mile off. I realise not everyone would think this way though.

There is a TfL poster saying something to the effect of spotting a ticket inspector is easy, they look just like you. I've never spotted one other than on the TV series 'the tube' when astonishingly they thought it was a good idea to show viewers how easy it was to tailgate another passenger through the ticket gates!!

I take your point about having both plain clothed and uniformed inspectors but I would imagine they don't come cheap and with the tube network almost fully gated it must be difficult to justify large numbers of them?

 

[Clip]

There is a TfL poster saying something to the effect of spotting a ticket inspector is easy, they look just like you. I've never spotted one other than on the TV series 'the tube' when astonishingly they thought it was a good idea to show viewers how easy it was to tailgate another passenger through the ticket gates!!

I take your point about having both plain clothed and uniformed inspectors but I would imagine they don't come cheap and with the tube network almost fully gated it must be difficult to justify large numbers of them?

Theres lots of poster around of them - and on the buses too.

just because its barriered its still worthwhile having a large enough team to deter the people from using tickets they shouldn't do in the first place.

As we have seen from the disputes forum TfL are far less likely to go for an out of court settlement and a prosecution focuses most people minds.

Youll always have fare dodgers you just need to make sure they know its a game and theres a chance they will get caught.

 

[hulabaloo]

Most of my local stations are unmanned and do not have ticket machines, just those completely unreliable permit to travel machines.

This means I'm completely reliant on conductors if I don't want to hang around for twenty minutes at places like London Victoria to purchase a ticket before the barriers (Bromley South can be even worse).

One that note I wonder if on-board ticket machines would ever be a viable option, or has been tried before?

 

[sarahj]

Do southern conductors check tickets often between brighton and havant?

I've worked trains between Brighton and Havant these last few days and pass between the two 2-4 times. Sometimes you have a plan to do more but this can be thrown out by many things, wheelchairs, folks coming to you to buy etc etc.

The difficulty in rush hour trains is just trying to get through. If i'm squeezed into a little corner next to a door, I wont be doing a ticket check. Some RPI's do special first class only checks between Victoria and East Croydon. Some are in plain clothes.


Oh, and never ever assume the chav type in first class does not have a first class ticket. I've even had a passenger moan about someone quite well dressed who did not have a first class ticket. Turned out he did, but another passenger did not. One passenger was black, the other white. Guess who was being moaned about.

 

[matt_world2004]

I have been inspected on southeastern and fgw going into London. The southeastern staff asked me to log into my online account to prove I had paid with contactless. I didn't log in because I thought that was a bit cheeky.

 

[STPBTN]

First time this had happened: there was an RPI doing ticket checks (Oysters included) between St Pancras and Farringdon this morning on Thameslink. For all Oyster passengers, he was asking them where they were going and reminding them that East Croydon would be the limit.

 

[FOH]

I can count the number of Southern trains I haven't been checked on one hand. But then again I travel the entirety of two long services, so I have no chance of missing one!

In the 6 years I've been travelling to London Bridge I've never been checked on board.

 

[GodAtum]

I wish Southern would be more pro-active in checking 1st class tickets.

 

[tsr]

First time this had happened: there was an RPI doing ticket checks (Oysters included) between St Pancras and Farringdon this morning on Thameslink. For all Oyster passengers, he was asking them where they were going and reminding them that East Croydon would be the limit.

I've had it a few times, but not with the helpful advice you mention. I would be surprised if Oyster wasn't checked, to be honest, as many people would be using it. Likewise Contactless etc.

In the 6 years I've been travelling to London Bridge I've never been checked on board.

To be fair, I should imagine it is a lower priority from Sydenham up to London Bridge/New Cross Gate due to ticket barriers now being in regular full-time use at the majority of popular destinations. I can appreciate there will be barrier jumpers, people with incorrect travelcard zones, etc., but I hope you can see why this route would be of a lower priority than, say, some of the smaller stations between West Croydon and Dorking, South Bermondsey - Tulse Hill, or further down the line in the Anerley area.

That said, the other examples I've given aren't exactly teeming with RPIs either, bar Peckham Rye.

I wish Southern would be more pro-active in checking 1st class tickets.

It's something conductors and RPIs are able to use their judgement to prioritise above other checks if that's the only thing possible. Sadly the trains are often too crowded to move people out, or get revenue staff in, anyway - I have been towards the less crowded parts (!) of a 12 car set where it wouldn't really be possible for the guard to leave the cab to go and check, because there are three people in the gangway between them and First Class and goodness only knows how many in the aisles beyond that.

Wherever services can be lengthened in future, I'm sure checking will gradually become more possible. With standing/circulation room improved in the Class 700s, for example. But with a 377 where many of the Standard seats are in 3+2 layout with loads of people between them, you try squeezing down to check First, and then go 5 coaches back for your dispatch position... sometimes it can be done, but often sadly not.

 

[island]

I have been inspected on southeastern and fgw going into London. The southeastern staff asked me to log into my online account to prove I had paid with contactless. I didn't log in because I thought that was a bit cheeky.

That's a bit much. Not least because it isn't mandatory to have an online account with your contactless card.

 

[plasmaxx]

You can see there are multiple ways of fare dodging. Easy one oils the wireless contact card as there is no way for the ticket inspector to check. Otherwise like I mentioned in my last post with the Polish lady you can just say you accidentally didn't touch in with your oyster (or you have lost your ticket).

 

[Barn]

That's a bit much. Not least because it isn't mandatory to have an online account with your contactless card.

Imagine if he had been using a contactless mobile app, contactless wristband or contactless PayTag etc (all of which are permitted according to http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/what-is-contactless?intcmp=8610).

The chance of being stopped by a Southeastern RPI with nothing but a contactless sticker on me is terrifying.

 

[tsr]

You can see there are multiple ways of fare dodging. Easy one oils the wireless contact card as there is no way for the ticket inspector to check.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the latter, but the Revenue Inspection Devices (the ugly grey readers with a small colour screen) issued to RPIs/guards/conductors at many London area TOCs will allow inspection of the status of a Contactless device, whatever that device may be - ie. to check whether or not payment for the journey has been successfully authorised.

 

[causton]

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the latter, but the Revenue Inspection Devices (the ugly grey readers with a small colour screen) issued to RPIs/guards/conductors at many London area TOCs will allow inspection of the status of a Contactless device, whatever that device may be - ie. to check whether or not payment for the journey has been successfully authorised.

But remember AFAIK this does not happen instantly (and not all TOCs have them yet!) - it only sends a message to TfL servers to get the system to check later in the evening when the daily charge is worked out, if they were touched in at that time, all is well, if not... (I don't know actually, TfL doesn't specify, but I believe they will block the card if it happens more than once! Perhaps you get a maximum fare added to your contactless card)

 

[tsr]

But remember AFAIK this does not happen instantly (and not all TOCs have them yet!) - it only sends a message to TfL servers to get the system to check later in the evening when the daily charge is worked out, if they were touched in at that time, all is well, if not... (I don't know actually, TfL doesn't specify, but I believe they will block the card if it happens more than once! Perhaps you get a maximum fare added to your contactless card)

The RIDs can show if the card has been authorised or not, or whether it can't be authorised, and that's all that will be able to realistically be done with this method of payment so far. Cards which are marked as not authorised are available as an update on the RID as often as possible - usually every 15mins, IIRC.

Maximum fare applies + then the card is blocked the third time it's not touched in/out correctly (potentially).

 

[Mojo]

The RIDs can show if the card has been authorised or not, or whether it can't be authorised, and that's all that will be able to realistically be done with this method of payment so far. Cards which are marked as not authorised are available as an update on the RID as often as possible - usually every 15mins, IIRC.

Maximum fare applies + then the card is blocked the third time it's not touched in/out correctly (potentially).

The RID cannot guarantee to an Inspector whether the CPC has been touched in, it will only confirm that it would have been possible (i.e. the card is in the required range and not in the deny list). If I present my not-touched in CPC to an Inspector on a train, as long as I am travelling within the area of validity, and as long as the Inspector did not see me enter without having previously touched in,[1] then my only "penalty" is the maximum fare (and being added to a list of possibly getting blocked in the future).

[1] This is unlikely

 

[tsr]

The RID cannot guarantee to an Inspector whether the CPC has been touched in, it will only confirm that it would have been possible (i.e. the card is in the required range and not in the deny list). If I present my not-touched in CPC to an Inspector on a train, as long as I am travelling within the area of validity, and as long as the Inspector did not see me enter without having previously touched in,[1] then my only "penalty" is the maximum fare (and being added to a list of possibly getting blocked in the future).

[1] This is unlikely

I'm sorry, that's sort of what I was trying to say, but I seem to have failed! I meant that you can only see that "the card is authorised" rather than "the card is touched in", but you put it much better than I did! Of course, the RIDs actually come up with a green tick and "Card Inspected", which adds more terminology and possibly unnecessary confusion.

 

[GodAtum]

Had two guards in the last door today. One checked my ticket

 

[AndyNLondon]

On my most recent encounter with a London Underground ticket inspector, they were in plain clothes at a gateline - they weren't checking everyone and if they didn't check your ticket, you wouldn't have known they were inspectors. (I was making a cross-London transfer on a railcard-discounted national rail ticket, and as soon as I went through the gate the inspector showed her badge and asked to see my ticket & railcard. I assume there's an indication for them on the gateline screens for railcard, child ticket, etc and they were specifically checking those.)

 

[matt_world2004]

That's a bit much. Not least because it isn't mandatory to have an online account with your contactless card.

It also means using my data and battery which the RPI hasn't paid for.