Why are TOC's still allowed to use Pacers and Sprinters?

[yorksrob]

So what exactly were Sprinters and Pacers built to do? Were they built to transport people in luxury from one end of the country to another, or were they built to get you less than 100 miles cheaply?

One could argue that in some instances, pacers were built to run rural branch lines but have ended up running some busy inter urban services that they aren't particularly suited for.

That said, a lot of these issues could be solved by introducing enough stock to be able to strengthen/double the pacers rather than scrap them (particularly true of the 2 carriage 144 diagram on the Hallam stoppers where most are 3 carriage for example).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Out of interest, are you able to offer an opinion on how Turbostars and class 185s compare?

I like Turbostars, however I do get the feeling the build is not as robust as a Sprinter.

You're spot on with the Turbostar v Desiro Diesel comparison, the Desiro is better built, but it's a heavier unit as a result. Heavier hinges, thicker walls, better interior panels and heavier duty ancillaries mean more mass.

The extra mass of the Class 185 means it can't run at Sprinter differential speed limits, and the SF5000 bogie isn't quite as nice as the BREL derived P3/T3 bogies which it comes to track forces - unsurprising as the P3/T3 bogies were designed specifically for British Rail and their track, Siemens had parameters to meet but not ready access to the minds of those who drew up the parameters.

The biggest flaw with most of the Turbostars is using the really rubbish MTU 6R183 engine, it's an old Mercedes Benz/MAN truck engine and doesn't stay in tune long after overhaul. This was rectified with the Class 172 using the newer MTU 6H1800 engine. The Desiro went too far the other way (as required by the ITT) in fitting Cummins QSK19R engines, these are generally used for 125mph units (Class 22x and Class 180 units) but considered the only way to meet the timings on two engines, as required.

 

[Mordac]

You're spot on with the Turbostar v Desiro Diesel comparison, the Desiro is better built, but it's a heavier unit as a result. Heavier hinges, thicker walls, better interior panels and heavier duty ancillaries mean more mass.

The extra mass of the Class 185 means it can't run at Sprinter differential speed limits, and the SF5000 bogie isn't quite as nice as the BREL derived P3/T3 bogies which it comes to track forces - unsurprising as the P3/T3 bogies were designed specifically for British Rail and their track, Siemens had parameters to meet but not ready access to the minds of those who drew up the parameters.

The biggest flaw with most of the Turbostars is using the really rubbish MTU 6R183 engine, it's an old Mercedes Benz/MAN truck engine and doesn't stay in tune long after overhaul. This was rectified with the Class 172 using the newer MTU 6H1800 engine. The Desiro went too far the other way (as required by the ITT) in fitting Cummins QSK19R engines, these are generally used for 125mph units (Class 22x and Class 180 units) but considered the only way to meet the timings on two engines, as required.

I must say I've never been on a 171, 172, 175, or 180, but I think the 185s are the best DMUs I've ever been in at isolating the cabin from engine noise and vibrations. Does this have anything to do with the thicker walls, etc? They're certainly not quiet on the outside...

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It puzzles me how they're allowed to still operate these sheds, every modern european country has better trains than us.

Most of the modern European countries with better trains than 150s have closed their branch lines. Given the choice between a Serpell-style network with nothing but HSTs, or a present-day network where you might have to catch a 150 on a lightly-used line, I know which one I'd go for.

Oh, and a "shed" is a 66.

 

[fgwrich]

If it puzzles you so much as to why Pacers and Sprinters still continue to provide day to day regular service, what do you suggest we replace them with and where will you get the money from?!

I actually find that Pacers can provide an adequate service - FGWs refurbished 143s work better than the Sprinters on the Exmouth - Exeter - Paignton leg of the Devon Metro for example!

 

[sciisfun]

If it puzzles you so much as to why Pacers and Sprinters still continue to provide day to day regular service, what do you suggest we replace them with and where will you get the money from?!

I actually find that Pacers can provide an adequate service - FGWs refurbished 143s work better than the Sprinters on the Exmouth - Exeter - Paignton leg of the Decon Metro for example!

+1 I'll be sad to see them leave really, prefer the 143's over some of the other rolling stock I've had the fortune to travel on, they have character, whereas other stuff seems a bit clinical!

 

[Footplate1]

So what exactly were Sprinters and Pacers built to do? Were they built to transport people in luxury from one end of the country to another, or were they built to get you less than 100 miles cheaply?

Pacers you mean leyland daf busses? They were built for the school run! The ride quality is shocking

 

[Kite159]

If it puzzles you so much as to why Pacers and Sprinters still continue to provide day to day regular service, what do you suggest we replace them with and where will you get the money from?!

I actually find that Pacers can provide an adequate service - FGWs refurbished 143s work better than the Sprinters on the Exmouth - Exeter - Paignton leg of the Devon Metro for example!

I found that the 143s are better inside than the 150/1s with the luxurious 3+2 airline high density seating.

 

[BigCj34]

The oldest trains on France, operating under the Intercité label and from 1975, are a lot more comfortable than a majority of trains in the UK. However, that would not be a fair comparison. Even though they run on the classic lines, they were built as luxurious intercity trains, a fairer comparison would be the HST. The Sprinters are a solid but unspectacular solution to keeping lines running. They are lacking in some of the modern amenities and are noisy, but if they are appropriately refurbished then they're not so bad.

I'm still disappointed my local Furness line has lost some of its Class 185 services though, which are notably more comfortable. However, as said before, if it means having a line with an inferior train than no line at all, I'd much rather have the line. France's network is more spartan in comparison and Paris centric, it's actually quicker to travel from Lyon to Bordeaux via Paris than via the south coast or across the fragmented Massif Central services.

 

[class387]

The oldest trains on France, operating under the Intercité label and from 1975, are a lot more comfortable than a majority of trains in the UK. However, that would not be a fair comparison. Even though they run on the classic lines, they were built as luxurious intercity trains, a fairer comparison would be the HST. The Sprinters are a solid but unspectacular solution to keeping lines running. They are lacking in some of the modern amenities and are noisy, but if they are appropriately refurbished then they're not so bad

I'm still disappointed my local Furness line has lost some of its Class 185 services though, which are notably more comfortable. However, as said before, if it means having a line with an inferior train than no line at all, I'd much rather have the line. France's network is more spartan in comparison and Paris centric, it's actually quicker to travel from Lyon to Bordeaux via Paris than via the south coast or across the fragmented Massif Central services.

I'm pretty sure that the Z5300s on southeast Paris suburban services are older and they are not comfortable.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Pacers you mean leyland daf busses? They were built for the school run! The ride quality is shocking

DAF was never involved in the Leyland Buses business, nor the BRE-Leyland joint venture.

Leyland Buses was sold to Volvo, Leyland Trucks (and the van business, which old BR hands will recall was once Sherpa and then Freight Rover) was taken over by DAF and became Leyland-DAF, which promptly went bust, was bought out by the Americans to become DAF (as we know it today) with the van business being bought by the management to become LDV (also to go bust).
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I found that the 143s are better inside than the 150/1s with the luxurious 3+2 airline high density seating.

The Wessex Trains and Arriva Trains Wales refurbishments were spectacular, 2+2 Chapman seating and new tables, repainted interior, new flooring and brighter lightbulbs. They really were nice units to use, though Cardiff to Manchester was a bit of a stretch.

 

[dk1]

I've found myself skipping through this thread. Is it another wind up? Irritating or what?

 

[43074]

The Wessex Trains and Arriva Trains Wales refurbishments were spectacular, 2+2 Chapman seating and new tables, repainted interior, new flooring and brighter lightbulbs. They really were nice units to use, though Cardiff to Manchester was a bit of a stretch.

Indeed, the ex Wessex and ATW units are still the best 150s by far, if they sort the corrosion issues (as they are on the GWR units on their C6 overhauls) there's no reason they can't continue well into the future, even if significant work is required to allow that to happen.

 

[Footplate1]

I was recently in Poland and Germany and the trains used there are far superior to anything used by UK TOC's. We claim to be one of the leading economies in Europe but we can't provide modern commuter services? The Pacers and 143s would be at home in Eastern Europe! Even these countries have better units than us.

 

[BigCj34]

I'm pretty sure that the Z5300s on southeast Paris suburban services are older and they are not comfortable.

Sorry, I should've specified, the mainline SNCF network so not the Transition SNCF suburban service. They are not comfortable.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Pacers and 150s are from an era when it was cheap and basic or nothing at all - they saved a round of regional line closures in the 1980s.
Pacers are on their way out, and will be gone by 2020 except perhaps in South Wales.
The 150s are good for another decade if they are refurbished - try the ATW upgraded versions for a better experience.

We may have a legacy of old/basic trains, but there are a lot of much better new ones on order.
New fleets are ordered when a new franchise is let, which is why some lines have waited a long time for anything new (eg Northern), and ATW is still waiting.
There was a policy for about 5 years of not ordering new DMUs because of the cost compared to electric, but that particular ban was broken by Northern (Arriva) for its new trains.
Electrification will also progressively kill off old DMUs.

 

[6Gman]

I was recently in Poland and Germany and the trains used there are far superior to anything used by UK TOC's. We claim to be one of the leading economies in Europe but we can't provide modern commuter services? The Pacers and 143s would be at home in Eastern Europe! Even these countries have better units than us.

Depends what you mean by "modern"?

Depends what you mean by "commuter services"?

Would commuting into Birmingham on a 172 be "modern" enough for you?

 

[fgwrich]

Indeed, the ex Wessex and ATW units are still the best 150s by far, if they sort the corrosion issues (as they are on the GWR units on their C6 overhauls) there's no reason they can't continue well into the future, even if significant work is required to allow that to happen.

Further increased by the FGW refurbishment I feel which really made the West Fleet units feel light and airy. And FGW & ATW have done wonders with the 153 Fleets as well.

I've found myself skipping through this thread. Is it another wind up? Irritating or what?

Indeed I'm now getting rather bored of this. If he really is a driver, and supposedly knowledgeable about these units then what's the point of threads like these?! Seems to listen to none of the points raised, and continues to insist that Eastern Europe has a better set up / stock wise despite the ever expansion of rolling stock schemes / new stock and the facts behind the current set up.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Have you ever travelled on 70s/80s-era LHCS on the continent? I shudder to even think about it.

In all fairness the remaining Corail stock on the SNCF is mostly in decent nick and there is still some decent LHCS running on the German rail network that was built in the 1980's.
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+1 I'll be sad to see them leave really, prefer the 143's over some of the other rolling stock I've had the fortune to travel on, they have character, whereas other stuff seems a bit clinical!

If you want character get a pet. Our pet cats have character by the ton and are from clinical, even when they are killing stuff.

 

[kingqueen]

The unique way in which TOCs are allocated / allowed to buy stock doesn't help. Weird half-privatised system with the government being still in some authority. Also the rail passenger numbers increase year upon year, every time there's more stock, there's more passengers so any intent to get rid of the crappiest stock has to be postponed.

I love HSTs but I don't love some poorly converted Mark 3 carriages without proper wheelchair access. Speaking of which: that's what's going to put 142s out of use, by 2020 all carriages have to be RVAR compliant, or near as damn it - unless something major changes (I wouldn't be surprised)

 

[jamesst]

In my time of driving I can count on one hand the number of times any passenger has complained to me about the train interior. The guard/conductor is the person anyone complains to not the driver. And the class of train has rarely bothered me (or any other driver I've asked), as long as it gets from a to b I'm happy! Something tells me the OP is being a tad economical with the 'driving' part...

 

[yorksrob]

In my time of driving I can count on one hand the number of times any passenger has complained to me about the train interior. The guard/conductor is the person anyone complains to not the driver. And the class of train has rarely bothered me (or any other driver I've asked), as long as it gets from a to b I'm happy! Something tells me the OP is being a tad economical with the 'driving' part...

Never driven a Merseyrail Pacer then

 

[class387]

I was recently in Poland and Germany and the trains used there are far superior to anything used by UK TOC's. We claim to be one of the leading economies in Europe but we can't provide modern commuter services? The Pacers and 143s would be at home in Eastern Europe! Even these countries have better units than us.

Agree mostly on Germany (there are still horrible trains though), but not on Poland. Many Polish trains (most other than EIP, EIC and only some TLK, all of which aren't commuter trains) are extremely basic and in a poor condition. Many Eastern European countries seem to have trains even worse than that.

Also, there are many modern commuter trains in the UK - 170s, 172s, 350s, 377s, 700s etc.

 

[devinier]

This op is not a train driver. I drive Sprinters everyday and any driver would know there is no aircon (except 158/159). No passenger has ever complained to me, the driver, about anything other than the absence of carriages behind my solo 153 !
Clearly taking the p***. Surprised he/she has time to post, in between driving HST'S, doing "a little overtime" to earn £70k, driving their 4.4litre BMW twin turbo 552 bhp BMW M5

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, I rather suspect the OP isn't a train driver after seeing this thread. Numerous schoolboy errors.

Another Walter Mitty.

 

[class387]

This op is not a train driver. I drive Sprinters everyday and any driver would know there is no aircon (except 158/159). No passenger has ever complained to me, the driver, about anything other than the absence of carriages behind my solo 153 !
Clearly taking the p***. Surprised he/she has time to post, in between driving HST'S, doing "a little overtime" to earn £70k, driving their 4.4litre BMW twin turbo 552 bhp BMW M5

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes, I rather suspect the OP isn't a train driver after seeing this thread. Numerous schoolboy errors.

Another Walter Mitty.

The crazy thing is, if Footplate1 had simply joined the forum as an enthusiast he could have asked all these rather simple questions and the majority of forum users (be they rail staff or not) would have answered those questions, with only the bare minimum of light-hearted mickey-taking. But all this clearly untrue stuff about being a driver is quite ridiculous. :roll:

 

[bb21]

What a ridiculous thread.

For a sensible answer, see Post 5 by AlterEgo, and elaborated by quite a few others further on.