Why are Train Tickets NON TRANSFERABLE?

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mralexn

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So, if you buy a train ticket, (not a travel card) Just say a Standard Advance ticket, and you then decide you do not want to travel on that day for whatever reason and you give that ticket to a friend, or, sell that ticket to a friend for a much lower price, what is the big deal?
I mean, Yes potentially the TOC is loosing out on money but is that the main and only reason that tickets are not transferable?

If you look at it this way, Person A (nice name i know :D) Buys a AP Ticket From London To Glasgow, Decides not to travel, but Person A Gives Person B (another awesome name) that ticket to travel, so the TOC really is not loosing out because person B is travelling instead of Person B..

The only time that I think its wrong, is when people SELL travel cards after they are done with them (on the London Underground for example)
Or maybe when they try to sell AP tickets at a Higher Price to someone.

But yeah, apart from what I have stated above what other reasons are there that the TOC's do not like people to transfer tickets. ?
 
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richw

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In the UK under ticket touting laws its illegal to sell a ticket (sport music etc)for higher than face value. Does this law apply also to travel tickets?

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SS4

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Doesn't it have something to do with contract law? Last time this came up someone (Old Timer?) said it was due to contracts.

In reality of course nobody is any the wiser
 

mralexn

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The main reason I am bringing this up, is because every single time i go to London and get a Travel card for the Underground, when I am done with it, (normally by around 7pm at the latest) I give it to someone I see queuing up for one, As a Good will gesture kinda thing :),

If however this could get me or the recipient in serious trouble then the travel card will be coming back to Plymouth with me! :D
 

wintonian

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You have kind of answerd your own question.

Whilst there are a multitude of scams that could be preformed given the inclination the logistics of some make them unatractive.

However one of the more common and simple one involves using a Bristol - Cardiff CDR for example and if if the ticket portions are not clipped or collected then that ticket could be used again.
 

mralexn

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In the UK under ticket touting laws its illegal to sell a ticket (sport music etc)for higher than face value. Does this law apply also to travel tickets?
I do not know, but, (in theory) someone could buy lots of AP tickets at say £10 for a certain train (say London To Derby)
Then, wait until the day, when a walk up single is for example £80
This person could then stand around and sell tickets to passengers wanting to get that train for £50.

(I hope i'm not giving anyone ideas :P ) I mean, you would get caught very fast! but , in theory, that to me is very illegal,
 

ainsworth74

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If however this could get me or the recipient in serious trouble then the travel card will be coming back to Plymouth with me!
There is no if about it, if a TfL RPI caught you doing this both you and the person you're giving it to could get in serious trouble.
 

NSEFAN

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I suppose giving the ticket to someone else loses the TOC revenue.

I think unauthorised resale is prohibited in order to prevent scams.
 

dvboy

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Yes it could and there is a current thread running on a similar theme.

I sometimes get offered daysavers at bus stops from people getting off buses as I get on them. I turn them down because I have a pass but I wonder if the driver would accept it, probably not. Before I had my pass however, if I've had a daysaver or daytripper I've offered it to my dad to go to the pub in the evening.

Having read through CIV the other day, it seems those tickets are transferable.
 

richw

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I do not know, but, (in theory) someone could buy lots of AP tickets at say £10 for a certain train (say London To Derby)
Then, wait until the day, when a walk up single is for example £80
This person could then stand around and sell tickets to passengers wanting to get that train for £50.

(I hope i'm not giving anyone ideas :P ) I mean, you would get caught very fast! but , in theory, that to me is very illegal,
No It's illegal to sell for greater than the price printed on the ticket. This however covers tickets in general, and railway bye laws may be different.

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DaveNewcastle

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I've learnt that you prefer to start new threads rather than to read through existing answers, but for your assistance, here are a few on this subject:

Transferring tickets

Train tickets on EBAY

Is it possible to swap/give/sell tickets

Refunds?

(There are more)

You should be aware that the legislative framework under which the Railways operate is between 150 and 125 years old, so your thoughts about "the TOC's do not like people to transfer tickets" are probably slightly missing the point. TOCs hadn't been thought of then, they were separate, competing companies on separate, competing tracks.
Today, the TOCs are in the same position as passengers, all trying to make the best of an ancient and sometimes innappropriate inheritance!
But despite my cheeky reply, there is some wisdom in those other threads = I hope you might appreciate some of it.
 

mralexn

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I've learnt that you prefer to start new threads rather than to read through existing answers, but for your assistance, here are a few on this subject:

Transferring tickets

Train tickets on EBAY

Is it possible to swap/give/sell tickets

Refunds?

(There are more)

You should be aware that the legislative framework under which the Railways operate is between 150 and 125 years old, so your thoughts about "the TOC's do not like people to transfer tickets" are probably slightly missing the point. TOCs hadn't been thought of then, they were separate, competing companies on separate, competing tracks.
Today, the TOCs are in the same position as passengers, all trying to make the best of an ancient and sometimes innappropriate inheritance!
But despite my cheeky reply, there is some wisdom in those other threads = I hope you might appreciate some of it.
Thanks :),
I have tried the "search" feature, but I never seem to have any luck with it! :P
 

Fare-Cop

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Extract from current National Railways Byelaws (2005)

21. Unauthorised buying or selling of tickets

(1) Subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall sell or buy any ticket.
(2) Subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall transfer or receive any unused or partly used ticket, intending that any person shall use it for travelling unless the conditions of use for the ticket specifically permit such transfer.
(3) Subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall knowingly use any ticket, which has been obtained in breach of Byelaw 21.
(4) The sale or transfer by, or the purchase or receipt from, an authorised person in the course of his duties or from an authorised ticket machine is excepted from the provisions of Byelaw 21.

Getting caught and if prosecuted under any of the above, means facing a maximum fine that could be applied of up to £1000, plus prosecution costs, plus compensation of any fare due, plus a victim surcharge imposed by the last government on anyone who is fined in a Magistrates Court.

whether we agree with the principle or not, I guess that's a very good reason for not doing it.
 

yorkie

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I mean, Yes potentially the TOC is loosing out on money but is that the main and only reason that tickets are not transferable?
It's one reason.

But another reason (as I've said on this forum before) is that they need to stop someone buying all the cheap Advance tickets and putting them on eBay. In fact, I note you answered your own question in post #6!

My view has not changed:-

This has been discussed several times, perhaps most recently in the Train tickets on EBAY, Is it possible to swap/give/sell tickets and Refunds? topics.

The general consensus is that the TOCs do not appear to mind tickets being swapped in person among friends/family/within an organisation but the condition that tickets are not transferable must exist because without that, it would legitimise someone buying all the cheap tickets on the day they go on sale and putting them all on eBay - I think we can all agree that would be very bad for TOCs and very bad for customers!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks :),
I have tried the "search" feature, but I never seem to have any luck with it! :P
What did you search for?

I did a search for the key word in your title and got loads of results. You can try google: site:railforums.co.uk transferable or use our search feature (you could restrict by posts by a knowledgeable poster if you get too many results)

That thread is closed.
If someone wishes to debate something from that thread then they can always ask for the thread to be re-opened by sending us a PM :) I doubt there's anything new going to crop up in this particular topic that hasn't been discussed before though.
 
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mullin

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There is no if about it, if a TfL RPI caught you doing this both you and the person you're giving it to could get in serious trouble.




This was on that tube programme on bbc2, someone bought a used ticket for a few pound. They were been watched by a rpi, went through the gates and passed a penality fare moments later.
 

amcluesent

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If the fee to change each AP ticket wan't the ridiculous £10, then there wouldn't be the incentive to sell on overground tickets when you can't travel. Greedy TOC shareholders want to rob you every which way. The admin fee should be £1 at the counter and free online.
 
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Squaddie

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If the fee to change each AP ticket wan't the ridiculous £10, then there wouldn't be the incentive to sell on overground tickets when you can't travel. Greedy TOC shareholders want to rob you every which way. The admin fee should be £1 at the counter and free online.
I'm no fan of the UK's rail companies and its ticketing system, but I think charging £10 to amend an Advance ticket is perfectly reasonable. You are getting a low fare in return for accepting restrictions on when you can travel: if you want flexibility, you should buy a flexible ticket.
 

Stats

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In the UK under ticket touting laws its illegal to sell a ticket (sport music etc)for higher than face value. Does this law apply also to travel tickets?
Your talking nonsense. Under UK law you are free to resell a ticket for an event for whatever price you see fit. The exceptions are football and the Olympics where ticket reselling is prohibited.
 

exile

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Extract from current National Railways Byelaws (2005)

21. Unauthorised buying or selling of tickets

(1) Subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall sell or buy any ticket.
(2) Subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall transfer or receive any unused or partly used ticket, intending that any person shall use it for travelling unless the conditions of use for the ticket specifically permit such transfer.
(3) Subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall knowingly use any ticket, which has been obtained in breach of Byelaw 21.
(4) The sale or transfer by, or the purchase or receipt from, an authorised person in the course of his duties or from an authorised ticket machine is excepted from the provisions of Byelaw 21.

Getting caught and if prosecuted under any of the above, means facing a maximum fine that could be applied of up to £1000, plus prosecution costs, plus compensation of any fare due, plus a victim surcharge imposed by the last government on anyone who is fined in a Magistrates Court.

whether we agree with the principle or not, I guess that's a very good reason for not doing it.
21(2) appears to rule out me buying a ticket for my OH, my mother, or my boss at work. I know elsewhere it's been stated that TOC's "don't mind" you doing this but the wording seems clear enough.... only buy a ticket if you're going to use it yourself....
 

Fare-Cop

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21(2) appears to rule out me buying a ticket for my OH, my mother, or my boss at work. I know elsewhere it's been stated that TOC's "don't mind" you doing this but the wording seems clear enough.... only buy a ticket if you're going to use it yourself....
Yes, that is correct and this isn't 'olde' legislation, the latest Byelaw review was 2005.

What has happened since is that the more enlightened recognise that modern technology and the need to embrace it, including P@H ticketing and other online purchase methods mean people do buy tickets for others.

This is why some online systems now allow you to state the name of the traveller if different from the purchaser and qualify it by the need for ID to be carried on train. This allows the traveller to have a ticket paid for by someone else, but without breaching the Byelaws. The ticket is for the named traveller only.
 

142094

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Quite a few systems have problems with vagrants collecting used day travelcards/tickets and selling them on at night - some of them can become quite angry if you refuse to buy it off them.
 
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