Why are Train Tickets NON TRANSFERABLE?

[Wyvern]

Ah sorry. Misread it?

Clearly there is latitude for common sense in the application of these laws or, for instance, every time a parent takes their child on the train and buys them a ticket they are breaking the law.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

"Breaking the Law"? No. Not at all.
There must be some confusion here, Yorkie's answer to your question is quite correct.

 

[yorkie]

Ah sorry. Misread it?

Clearly there is latitude for common sense in the application of these laws or, for instance, every time a parent takes their child on the train and buys them a ticket they are breaking the law.

There's certainly some confusion here.

I can buy a ticket for anyone. That person may use the ticket.

What I can't do, is...

1) I can't buy a ticket with no specific person in mind, and then put the ticket for sale to the general public. There are obvious reasons for this, as described previously, and it would also be highly immoral and extremely bad for customers if that happened.

or

2) I also can't buy a ticket with a particular person in mind, and then if that person can't make it, put the ticket for sale to the general public.
​

There is no way for a TOC to distinguish between 1 & 2. Therefore if someone offers tickets for sale through the likes of Gumtree or eBay, it is only right that the TOC takes appropriate action.

However....

Given that I can buy a ticket for, say, a family member, if that family member falls ill, the TOC isn't going to know if another family member goes instead. Likewise with a business, the ticket may need to be used by a member of a particular department, but if the manager is ill, then the deputy manager could go, for example. Whether or not this is considered a 'transfer' could be open to debate and interpretation, but providing the ticket conditions are satisfied, the TOCs are not likely to be too fussed about that. There's no evidence of any attempt to profit from other passengers, and no attempt to defraud TOCs. It may be that a Company buys a ticket for a particular role in mind, but there may be more than one individual who can fulfil that role. The TOCs are not likely to be interested in pursuing such matters.

Therefore, if someone says they cannot use a ticket and is considering selling it, I would strongly advise them NOT to advertise the ticket for sale to the general public. If a family member or close friend or business colleague can go instead, that is a rather different matter.

 

[Wyvern]

Anyone can buy a ticket for anyone. That is not considered transferring a ticket.

Why not?

Its already quoted here in post #18 of this discussion.

(2) Subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall transfer or receive any unused or partly used ticket, intending that any person shall use it for travelling unless the conditions of use for the ticket specifically permit such transfer.

..........................

(4) The sale or transfer by, or the purchase or receipt from, an authorised person in the course of his duties or from an authorised ticket machine is excepted from the provisions of Byelaw 21.

Section 4 simply allows authorised people to sell tickets. It says nothing about buying a ticket and passing it to someone else.

I'm not doubting anyone's word. It needs to be put into clear English. Even if someone reads all the bye-laws before going near a railway it doesnt mean they are intelligible. Everyone on here knows what they mean without actually reading them.

 

[transmanche]

As I understand it, a London Travelcard is the property of Transport for London. It's not yours to sell on.

Correct. TfL Rail byelaw 21.2 "No person shall transfer or produce a ticket on behalf of another person intending to enable that other person to travel without having paid the correct fare" and TfLCoC 7.2.1. "Our printed tickets can only be used by the person they were bought for. Tickets must not be resold or given away for further use. Doing this automatically invalidates them and is an offence under our Byelaws."

Taking this to the extreme, how about a parent buying a ticket for their child?

Anyone can buy a ticket for anyone. That is not considered transferring a ticket.

Correct. Byelaw 21(4) doesn't apply here. What is relevant is condition 6 of the NRCoC. "A ticket may only be used by the person for whom it has been bought."

 

[exile]

But how does anyone know for whom the ticket was bought, if you don't state it (when buying from a ticket office or agency) or record it when booking online?

 

[yorkie]

But how does anyone know for whom the ticket was bought, if you don't state it (when buying from a ticket office or agency) or record it when booking online?

They can't. But if someone advertises it for sale on the internet, complete with seat reservation details (and sometimes even TOD numbers!) then they quite easily see that the ticket was transferred.

 

[exile]

They can't. But if someone advertises it for sale on the internet, complete with seat reservation details (and sometimes even TOD numbers!) then they quite easily see that the ticket was transferred.

Fair enough, but the non-transferability rules long pre-date the internet.

I suspect buying tickets in advance, by any means, was a rarity until comparatively recently as there was no discount available for doing so - the price was the same whether you bought on the day or not, so it's hard to see why this rule was thought necessary - except for the possibility of selling on an unused portion of a return ticket (or one that hadn't been clipped).

 

[transportphoto]

I can go out and buy a ticket for a friend with the sole intention for it being used by that friend. This is not breaking the law. Similar applies if buying online, I can buy a ticket using my account for my friend, the ticket (when collected/printed) will display my name at the bottom but the ticket was purchased with the sole intention of my friend using it. The ticket hasn't been transferred. This applies to the Parent/Child scenario, the parent has bought the ticket with the intention of that child using the ticket.

Buying a ticket then advertising it for sale on ebay, you are transferring the ticket, you bought it with the intention of A using it, you are then transferring it to unknown person B.

TP

 

[exile]

I can go out and buy a ticket for a friend with the sole intention for it being used by that friend. This is not breaking the law. Similar applies if buying online, I can buy a ticket using my account for my friend, the ticket (when collected/printed) will display my name at the bottom but the ticket was purchased with the sole intention of my friend using it. The ticket hasn't been transferred. This applies to the Parent/Child scenario, the parent has bought the ticket with the intention of that child using the ticket.

Buying a ticket then advertising it for sale on ebay, you are transferring the ticket, you bought it with the intention of A using it, you are then transferring it to unknown person B.

TP

Well - tickets generally don't have names on them. And it's odd to have an offence which you can commit by changing your mind (eg, you buy a ticket for child A and child B is the one who travels).

 

[lyesbkz]

Well - tickets generally don't have names on them. And it's odd to have an offence which you can commit by changing your mind (eg, you buy a ticket for child A and child B is the one who travels).

While I generally hesitate to compare rail travel with air travel -- if you buy a flight ticket for child A, you give them the name, and child B cannot travel on the ticket.

The railways don't go to the extent of taking the passenger's name in this country, and if they did then it would be a massive inconvenience and waste of time as well as difficult to enforce. It can be enforced on air travel as photographic ID is generally required.

This does not mean that everybody automatically has the right to pass around their tickets.

(interestingly, I once purchased a bus day ticket in Florence, costing around 5 euros, and was surprised that I had to write my name on the front of the ticket and present proof of ID whenever I boarded a bus, with the ticket! I'm not trying to compare this to the above, just a point about how silly things like this can get)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

What the past few posts have highlighted is the general tendency to consider these matters only from one point of view: how customer-friendly these systems are to the every-day passenger. I see no consideration of some of the more important issues that are really at stake.
Never mind busses or planes. Never mind buying a ticket for your child. But just imagine for a moment that one of the thankfully rare incidents has ocurred on the rails, one in which a passenger's life is lost or a lifelong incapacity is created.

Which of these two legal positions would you want to be in?
The person whose evidence shows that the Company's Insurers (any maybe your own insurers) will agree that you are a bona fide passenger entitled to all support, compensation and aftercare?
Or an unauthorised victim entitled to nothing other than possible Prosecution?

You decide.