Why can't some ECS movements be opened to the public?

[m00036]

As an example, there is an ECS movement at 23:26 from Reading to Ascot (non-stop), which would provide a later connection to the Farnham service (which is formed by this unit!). I have seen this service depart and know that this has a guard and driver as they form the corresponding service at Ascot, so why can't this be made available for public use?

The only reason I can think of is in circumstances of disruption and the corresponding liability to the rail operator, but surely there must be a way of marking this on a timetable as 'not guaranteed to run', much like unadvertised ordinary passenger services that appear on RTT and on station departure boards but not when planning a journey.

 

[bramling]

As an example, there is an ECS movement at 23:26 from Reading to Ascot (non-stop), which would provide a later connection to the Farnham service (which is formed by this unit!). I have seen this service depart and know that this has a guard and driver as they form the corresponding service at Ascot, so why can't this be made available for public use?

The only reason I can think of is in circumstances of disruption and the corresponding liability to the rail operator, but surely there must be a way of marking this on a timetable as 'not guaranteed to run', much like unadvertised ordinary passenger services that appear on RTT and on station departure boards but not when planning a journey.

Interesting you should say this, as I’ve always thought something like a “service provided on a non-guaranteed basis” would have some merit in certain situations.

One difficulty is that some ECS moves don’t get a wonderful path, in some cases considerable pathing time, or even looped somewhere.

On GN I used to occasionally travel into London around 2100, and there was an ECS Baldock to King’s Cross pair of 365s which used to run at exactly the right time, and I did often wonder to myself how nice it would have been to be able to use it.

To be fair, there has been a trend over the last decade or two for some ECS to re designated as passenger. Can certainly think of a few on GN.

Was there not an arrangement mentioned here where the last ECS back from Hayes (Kent) in the evening could carry passengers in order to avoid problems getting sleepers off at Hayes?

 

[TEW]

That particular ECS from Reading to Ascot has indeed run in service in previous timetables.

 

[306024]

ECS trains can appear in some timetables, and disappear in the next, depending on unit diagramming requirements. Easy to turn an ECS into a passenger train, not so easy to withdraw a passenger train if you no longer need what used to be an ECS.

As for a service that is “not guaranteed to run”, well that is a novel idea

 

[bramling]

ECS trans can appear in some timetables, and disappear in the next, depending on unit diagramming requirements. Easy to turn an ECS into a passenger train, not so easy to withdraw a passenger train if you no longer need what used to be an ECS.

As for a service that is “not guaranteed to run”, well that is a novel idea

It does make some sense though, and avoids the problem described of withdrawing a service. Being additional to the core service, no massive hardship if it doesn’t run or disappears, but useful for those who happen to be there at the right time (especially during disruption).

I’ve had it happen at Letchworth occasionally during the daytime when a Kings Lynn or Ely service has terminated there for whatever reason, and has then restarted from the sidings towards London taking on passengers at Letchworth (where the original service wasn’t even booked to call!) and then fast to London. One of those moments when one can remind one’s self how good rail travel can be!

 

[pdeaves]

In the general case, a train may need a guard. This 'last train' may take the guard to somewhere where they can't then get home.

Imagine the furore when people start planning on catching such-and-such train and it doesn't run on that day. Even if clearly advertised as 'not guaranteed', I am sure the public at large wouldn't accept it not running on the one occasion they want it.

 

[bramling]

Imagine the furore when people start planning on catching such-and-such train and it doesn't run on that day. Even if clearly advertised as 'not guaranteed', I am sure the public at large wouldn't accept it not running on the one occasion they want it.

That argument essentially says “Britain - run by stupid people for stupid people”.

It’s really not a complex concept to make it clear to people that the specific service is an extra. I don’t see why someone throwing their toys out of the pram should have any bearing on things, though I’m sure you’re right that it would cause ire for some people.

 

[m00036]

That argument essentially says “Britain - run by stupid people for stupid people”.

It’s really not a complex concept to make it clear to people that the specific service is an extra. I don’t see why someone throwing their toys out of the pram should have any bearing on things, though I’m sure you’re right that it would cause ire for some people.

Well in this case it's the opportunity to leave 20 minutes later after an evening out, so knowing 22:00 the night before (i.e. published timetable of the day time) would be more than sufficient. Even knowing a little bit before the prior service (23:02) would be fine to know when you need to get to the station by. As it stands, it just seems so wasteful to have trains operating passenger routes with passenger facilities but without allowing passengers onboard.

That particular ECS from Reading to Ascot has indeed run in service in previous timetables.

Interesting, didn't know that!

 

[swt_passenger]

delete sorry, mixed up my trains…

 

[Towers]

The issue with 'non-guaranteed' services here is that, by definition, many ECS moves are very late in the evening, and indeed in many cases might well be the last train of the day if they were to run in service. The problems that would likely arise if such a train didn't run for whatever reason, with people turning up last thing at night either having not checked beforehand or not understanding that the train isn't guaranteed to run, are easy to envisage. For daytime moves then yes it might well have merit, but 'maybe, maybe not' services late at night is highly likely to be more trouble than it's worth!

 

[zwk500]

That argument essentially says “Britain - run by stupid people for stupid people”.

It’s really not a complex concept to make it clear to people that the specific service is an extra. I don’t see why someone throwing their toys out of the pram should have any bearing on things, though I’m sure you’re right that it would cause ire for some people.

Unfortunately, it has been shown quite a lot in recent times that there are rather a lot of very stupid people, and that they can create a great deal of fuss when they want to. Politicians are in it for an easy life, so anybody who causes fuss that can be appeased without great effort tend to get what they're shouting about.

Well in this case it's the opportunity to leave 20 minutes later after an evening out, so knowing 22:00 the night before (i.e. published timetable of the day time) would be more than sufficient. Even knowing a little bit before the prior service (23:02) would be fine to know when you need to get to the station by.

Deciding the day before would defeat the point of having it as an 'as required' service. It's probably easier just not to advertise it, but to put a note in Control saying 'this can be put into passenger service if needed' Then at 5pm if service is going down the spout control can ring the train crew and tell them they'll need to run in service. If there was a genuine reason to have this in the full public timetable then whatever problems are causing it to not run in service should be properly sovled.

As it stands, it just seems so wasteful to have trains operating passenger routes with passenger facilities but without allowing passengers onboard.

It would be more wasteful to run the unit in full passenger service for the benefit of a very low number of passengers

 

[m00036]

Lots of ECS movements also take place at and around the first train in the morning, so there the loss to the passenger if it doesn't run is catching the train they would have also caught, whereas the gain is potentially getting ahead in the day. If the ECS movement runs 80% of the time then that's a net gain without loss to the railway. I agree that works better than late night movements where it may be the last train, in which case knowing it won't show up 20% of the time is rather less comforting.

In the case of my original example, there also wouldn't be anything to lose from running the 23:26 in passenger service but with it being pick up only at Ascot. If it's cancelled, then the connecting service would have been cancelled anyway so the train company would face exactly the same liability for the delay. Having it pick up only at Ascot means that passengers travelling to Ascot specifically facing a cancelled train can't claim delay repay for the wait.

Some ECS movements only run as required, but those like my example always run, they're just slightly different to the regular service during the day.

 

[miklcct]

As it is the last train of the day, it isn't simply possible to make it a non-guaranteed basis as people actually relies on last trains to get home and it will be a great trouble if it indeed can't run, potentially leaving dozens of passengers stranded in the station.

However, I think that some peak hour extras can be provided on this basis (run as required).

 

[jfollows]

There was a recent thread (well, from May 2021) New EMR service 2141 Manchester to Nottingham where an ECS train was converted to a passenger train with bad consequences which took further sorting out. Essentially the ECS was using a goods loop and when it was changed to a passenger service it couldn't run as timetabled.

 

[m00036]

Well I'm glad it's at least been tried . It's more surprising that I'm not surprised a planning error like this could occur... but I'd stand by my point that the train I mention has literally no other route to use so such an issue would be impossible. I should add it's not just this train I particularly care about, it's just interesting to hear about attempts in the past to offer more passenger services in this apparently simple way (but not in practice as it would seem!).

 

[Peter0124]

It annoys me that you can't travel into the stations sidings on an ECS unit, requiring a wait on the platform for it to turnback to get back on it again.

Why can't all services just reverse in the station platform? Or allow us to go into the turnback sidings? Very annoying having to put a laptop setup away and get off just to get back on the same unit again 10 minutes later while studying on the trains.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Seems like a half-baked solution to a poor service. It's a good idea in theory, but as mentioned there would be occasions of planning for it or failing to check. Might also be an opportunity for money-saving ideas and/or service cutbacks if TOCs decide to run previously scheduled services as non-guarantees.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Back in the day on North London Railways - we were sometimes approached as to why the ECS off the Clapham services - running to Euston via the DC and then Camden CS could not to converted to passenger use , ditto "empty" workings from Camden Road to Watford (Yard or station)

The answer is / was - ongoing engineering works causing short term amendments to where the stock was to be berthed , and frankly the revenue (virtually nil) , plus the hassle of sometimes awkward inebriated or otherwise incapacitated passengers , needing the trains to be "swept" clear of sleepers etc.......

More effort was done in ensuring the out of London etc "last trains" , which were often decently loaded and well understood by the travelling public as to reliability.....

 

[skyhigh]

It annoys me that you can't travel into the stations sidings on an ECS unit, requiring a wait on the platform for it to turnback to get back on it again.

How often do you stay on a train until it terminates, wait for it to shunt and then get back on it to go back towards where you came from??

Why can't all services just reverse in the station platform?

Depends on the signalling

Lots of ECS movements also take place at and around the first train in the morning, so there the loss to the passenger if it doesn't run is catching the train they would have also caught, whereas the gain is potentially getting ahead in the day.

Though the thing is ECS movements are obviously not timed for station stops and dwell. Unless you were just going to run it in service express from the start station to the end station you'd have to arrange the crew to book on earlier to take the train out earlier... which means more staff cost, less maintenance time at the depot, possibly changes to rotas to get minimum rest periods etc... The same thing obviously applies in reverse for ECS moves at the end of the day.

The other aspect is overnight possessions - ECS moves can often take different routes depending what's going on. So you'd either need to run the train non-stop so it doesn't matter which way you go (which is probably no use to potential passengers) or end up with a situation where you're running a non-guaranteed train that may or may not stop at intermediate stations.

The honest answer is generally where this idea is practical, it has already happened.

 

[Peter0124]

How often do you stay on a train until it terminates, wait for it to shunt and then get back on it to go back towards where you came from??

Depends on the signalling

A lot for me, I have been studying for hours on the train in recent times and would rather not be inconvenienced by the fact we need to get off just so the unit can turn back.

Studying on the train for me provides a good balance between getting work done / enjoying the journey.

 

[skyhigh]

The answer is / was - ongoing engineering works causing short term amendments to where the stock was to be berthed

Not that uncommon for ECS units to be borrowed or moves cancelled to stable at different points to balance units for the following morning after unit failures during the day either.

 

[Taunton]

On the DLR the ECS workings to/from the two depots as the service ramped up or down in the day were formerly open to the public, and sometimes formed a convenient through run that avoided multiple changes, for example from Lewisham/Canary Wharf to Custom House Excel station and beyond, avoiding two changes at the end of the evening peak.

Apparently on change of franchisee the same services were made ecs only, as they were beyond the franchise committed service, to avoid them being taken into the reliability percentage statistics and knocking those down. They still run, but out of service.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Though the thing is ECS movements are obviously not timed for station stops and dwell. Unless you were just going to run it in service express from the start station to the end station you'd have to arrange the crew to book on earlier to take the train out earlier... which means more staff cost, less maintenance time at the depot, possibly changes to rotas to get minimum rest periods etc... The same thing obviously applies in reverse for ECS moves at the end of the day.

If present ECS workings were to be timetabled as passenger services, surely this would mean that at least to some degree, new ECS movements would have to be established at both ends of the timetable. We'd then end up having this discussion about those trains, rendering the whole thing an excercise in futility. That's without mentioning the terrible load factors that these early morning/late evening services may be expected to acheive (movements out of Strawberry Hill CSD are between 0438 & 0544, then nothing until they come back between 0022 & 0119). I can see them being of use to the delayed passenger late in the evening, but I wouldn't expect the morning ones to work. The first train from Strawberry Hill via Richmond is 0539, and I've never seen anyone use it bar myself on occasion.

 

[Stephen42]

Some days last week the 23:26 Reading to Ascot 5C74 ran to Staines CHS without a staff stop at Ascot. The alteration is also in place for June 20th to 23rd, both times it appears a previous Ascot terminator runs the Farnham service instead. Depending on crew arrangements might still be possible to run in service to Ascot, but shows it can be more complex even for the simpler looking ones.

 

[Eccles1983]

Ecs moves also use position lights for movements.

Forbidden without specific permission with pax on board.

They also get used to test points/loops which are not for passenger service.

 

[30907]

The OP says "as an example" - but it's an unusual situation.

The set that arrives at Ascot from Aldershot returns immediately ECS to Farnham, while the following passenger is formed ECS from Reading (most end-of-day ECS are simply empty to depot).

As it isn't the last train of the day, and there is a 2333 via Blackwater the market for running this train in service would essentially be Reading to Bagshot and Camberley, which must be quite niche (except when there is disruption on the GWML perhaps).

 

[BJames]

It annoys me that you can't travel into the stations sidings on an ECS unit, requiring a wait on the platform for it to turnback to get back on it again.

Why can't all services just reverse in the station platform? Or allow us to go into the turnback sidings? Very annoying having to put a laptop setup away and get off just to get back on the same unit again 10 minutes later while studying on the trains.

This is highly specific and likely affects a tiny handful of people - but to give one answer, you'll find the unions not happy about it. For example:

London Underground wants Bakerloo line drivers to drive out-of-service trains into depots and sidings without checking first that all passengers have got off the train.

This has resulted in over 3,000 passengers being carried into depots and sidings, many times more than on all other London Underground lines put together. On other lines, staff physically check the train is empty first.

You could easily miss an announcement to get off the train, and get ‘overcarried’ into a depot or sidings. London Underground claims that new barriers between the carriages make it impossible to escape from the train and that therefore it is safe for passengers to be accidentally taken into depots and sidings. This is not true.

Last September, a 12-year-old boy got out of a train that had carried him into Queen’s Park depot. He wandered around on live track until he was rescued by the driver. He could easily have been killed.

Even if you do not get out of the train, you would be trapped inside it, which is distressing and dangerous.

After the Queen’s Park incident, drivers decided that we were no longer prepared to go along with London Underground’s dangerous policy. Both our unions - RMT and ASLEF - balloted us for industrial action, and since 15 January, we have been insisting on checking that our trains are empty before we take them into sidings or depots.

This is quite old now I think. But regardless - why don't you just go and work in the library? I always find the WiFi is never good enough on the train to allow me to complete my work properly - plus some have a 100mb limit etc

On the topic of the thread, this is one service (Falmouth Town to Par, ECS to Plymouth) that on the surface is quite frustrating:

Realtime Trains | 2P90 1941 Falmouth Docks to Par | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 2P90 1941 departure from Falmouth Docks to Par on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5P90 2041 Par to Plymouth | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 5P90 2041 departure from Par to Plymouth on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This was particularly frustrating last year as we were coming from Falmouth back to Plymouth, and the train was only going as far as Par (just ended up getting off at Truro as a more major place to wait) but this train runs ECS to Plymouth. Does the guard book off at Par or?

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Most bus companies run these types of services as depot runs so the railways could do the same

 

[Peter0124]

This is highly specific and likely affects a tiny handful of people - but to give one answer, you'll find the unions not happy about it. For example:

This is quite old now I think. But regardless - why don't you just go and work in the library? I always find the WiFi is never good enough on the train to allow me to complete my work properly - plus some have a 100mb limit etc

On the topic of the thread, this is one service (Falmouth Town to Par, ECS to Plymouth) that on the surface is quite frustrating:

Realtime Trains | 2P90 1941 Falmouth Docks to Par | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 2P90 1941 departure from Falmouth Docks to Par on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5P90 2041 Par to Plymouth | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 5P90 2041 departure from Par to Plymouth on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This was particularly frustrating last year as we were coming from Falmouth back to Plymouth, and the train was only going as far as Par (just ended up getting off at Truro as a more major place to wait) but this train runs ECS to Plymouth. Does the guard book off at Par or?

I just prefer using the trains as it creates a good environment for studying. Though I do understand that it only affects a small minority.

 

[L401CJF]

This is something I have always wondered too. Not sure how it is these days (I know 2 units now stable at Chester overnight and the crew taxi back to Birkenhead), on Merseyrail there were a number of ECS moves returning units from Ellesmere Port and Chester to various stabling locations after their last service of the day (a mix of Rock Ferry, Birkenhead Central, Hooton, Kirkdale, Birkenhead North depot). I always wondered if it would have made sense to run them in service at least part of the way - the guard usually stays on anyway back to base.