I think they have to have someone medically qualified too...
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Why do ferry services not seem to work in the UK?
- Thread starter markymark2000
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
AHBD
Member
Its still a pity that 12 cannot currently be foot passengers or cyclists, just freight drivers.... SeaTruck used to taje ordinary mortal car/caravan and campervan drivers but no more
There's no additional rules for medical qualifications to go beyond 12 passengers on short international voyages.
Other rules are very much more strict. It is almost impossible to convert a 12 passenger freight ferry to a full passenger ship as the rules are so different - stability, subdivision, fire protection, life saving appliances, evacuation routes and other rules are all very different.
There are quite a few freight ferries with a passenger certificate, often for 50-200 passengers, either to give future flexibility to upgrade to a full ropax, or because they are on a route that carries lots of driver accompanied freight. P&Os Norbank and Norbay are good examples.
I'm not surprised that freight companies don't take often foot passengers any more. It's a lot of work to provide check in and boarding facilities, and it could mean that they can't take a much more valuable accompanied freight vehicle.
thejuggler
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 1,265
Agree. It just demonstrates how poor long term planning is for important yet depreciating assets. The business case at the moment probably says we can limp along fixing the vessel for another 5 years so a new vessel gives a poor business cost ratio.
BBC Scotland Island Crossing (on iplayer) gives some more of the insight into the problems being experienced by Calmac now their fleet of larger ferries is coming to end of life. I'm sure over the last 10-15 years there have been lots of meetings about the age of the fleet, but its now reaching crisis point. As of today. Hebridean Isles suffering damaged cabins due to heating circuit leaks so crew can't stay on board, Lord of the Isles out of service, Caledonian Isles overhaul delays and out of service.
Following on from the entry in this list about the Hampton Loade ferry, this historic crossing of the Severn provided a link between the hamlet of Hampton Loade and the GWR/SVR station. Following various floods and other disasters it is sadly no longer working. It was an example of that rare breed (and unique in the UK), a reaction ferry, powered by the flow of the river current alone. There can surely be no more environmentally sensitive power source than this.
But -picking up from the thread title , ultimately its original purpose has ceased to exist. Hampton Loade station still be there, but no longer as part of a normal public transport network. No one actually needs to use it for their daily life.
Enpointe
Member
Exactly this and unless like the Thames in London the river is subject to estuarine / sea sp[eed limits the inland waters speed limits make they very slow further adding to the 'last resort' angle ( plus short waterline length none planing monohulls have quite restricted 'hull' speeds at which the power required to go faster is massively out of proportionto any benefit gained - this can only be countered by extremem 10 :1 fineness ratios, multihull / SWATH or being a planing craft - and planing and inland waterways speeds are mutually exclusive unless you are a 'blue light' user )
to Quote Mr Scott " i cannae change the laws of physics"
for an 'none fine' displacement monohull it's hull speed is related to the Square root of the waterline length ( various fudge factos apply depending on the unit of the waterline length and whather you want Knots, Statutue miles and hour , kilometers an hour or mpetres per second for the
when the hull's fineness is about 10:1 this relationship no longer works and it's easier to exceed the hull speed predicted by above equation , this is why Multihulls and SWATH vessels can go faster thana equivalent 'none fine' displacement monohull as effectively fro ma hydrodynamics point of view they are two ( or more) fine vessels in formation
this is where the 'sickcat' type ferries come in as a fully planing vessel of a size necessary to make an economic vehicle ferry is a no-go - this is why the bigger motorboat 'superyachts' are usually displacement vessels and will have if necessary a fast planing boat as a tender , where a 60 -80 foot sports cruiser may well plane , but at the cost of burning through it;s bunkers at quite a rate
Last edited:
As a non-scientific passenger, commuting using a Thames Clipper between London Bridge and Canary Wharf a few years ago was a no-brainer when the choice was between an exhilarating 26 knots on an open deck or being crammed onto the Jubilee Line.
AlastairFraser
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 2,883
Interesting.
What's the top speed a vehicle ferry could go, while balancing the efficiency and capacity requirements?
bangor-toad
Member
- Joined
- 20 Feb 2009
- Messages
- 617
That's very true but you can sidestep them so that it's a different set of issues to deal with...
Some colleagues are working on the Artemis e-foiler technology. That uses electric propulsion to drive the vessel fast enough to lift clear of the water - a hydrofoil.
Here's a general link: Artemis E-Foiler
The workboats are fully operational, fast and fun. The current work is to complete the 150 person ferry.
Link: EF-24 Ferry
This should have an operational speed of 34 knots with pretty much no wake.
The first commercial test is going to be a commuter ferry service from Bangor to Belfast. That'll be a demonstration of the concept rather than a fully commercially viable service but whatever the economics it'll make my commute far for interesting!
If these work as planned I think they could have an impact on the viability and use of coastal ferries.
Cheers,
Mr Toad
I can't see what all that tells us, but if you are saying an electric ferry isn't viable, the Danes have electrified the Helsingor - Helsingborg ferries - 2 of them anyway: https://www.forseaferries.com/about...ws/now-the-blue-way-is-also-the-greenest-one/
AlastairFraser
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 2,883
It's a shame there's no convenient canal from Belfast Lough to Strangford Lough, because that would be a great way of serving Newtownards and the other Strangford Lough villages to Belfast.That's very true but you can sidestep them so that it's a different set of issues to deal with...
Some colleagues are working on the Artemis e-foiler technology. That uses electric propulsion to drive the vessel fast enough to lift clear of the water - a hydrofoil.
Here's a general link: Artemis E-Foiler
The workboats are fully operational, fast and fun. The current work is to complete the 150 person ferry.
Link: EF-24 Ferry
This should have an operational speed of 34 knots with pretty much no wake.
The first commercial test is going to be a commuter ferry service from Bangor to Belfast. That'll be a demonstration of the concept rather than a fully commercially viable service but whatever the economics it'll make my commute far for interesting!
If these work as planned I think they could have an impact on the viability and use of coastal ferries.
Cheers,
Mr Toad
Enpointe
Member
what hull form do you want and what sea-keeping capabilities do you need
in the 1950s and 1960s the answer to this question was thought to be the Hovercraft , including Hovercraft built with a sizeable car deck that could take dozens of cars or a several motor coaches
then we've seen various attempts at hydrofoils for both passenger and military use , then there is the various flavours of fast ferry such as the seacats or other wave piercing designs ...
these all trade high speed in good to moderate conditions for shocking seakeeping (in)ability when it starts getting lumpy , the problem being that the Channel, the north Sea and the Irish Sea can all get quite lumpy at times
for a road or rail vehicle unless you reach a point of being in terminal wheelslip/ wheelspin characteristics ( but you can alway add more contact patches) more power correctly geared equals more tractive effort or higher speeds ... unfortunately ships and boats do not work like that ... , not to forget adding in the impact of operating in the transitional zone between two fluids that behave quite differently
it appears you seem to be equating 'business case' with 'demonstrates a profit ' , this a false equivalence. a Businbess case demonstrates that a project is an appropriate use of the funds in question
Medically Qualified Crew Member is only required for 100 + passengers on a 72 hours + voyage in international waters , however there are requirements for all other commercial vessels
STCW (MCA) Certificate of Proficiency in Medical Care | DDRC Healthcare
09 Dec 2024 Mon 8:30 AM - Fri 5:00 PM Plymouth John Dillingham £726.00 incl. VAT Register 13 Jan 2025 Mon 8:30 AM - Fri 5:00 PM Plymouth John Dillingham £726.00 incl. VAT Register6 places remaining 10 Mar 2025 Mon...
www.ddrc.org
Last edited:
AlastairFraser
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 2,883
Well, it would need to be able to cross a sea like the North Sea or Irish Sea, so pretty rugged. I was thinking an improvement in the order of 5-10 knots above current Britain to Ireland average speed would be targeted.
When it entered cross channel service, the high speed catamaran Normandie Express had vinyl flooring, and mops. More prone to cancellation due to sea conditons than traditional designs. Also, the only car ferry I have been directed to drive onto in reverse.
Enpointe
Member
Seacat aka Sickcat
Speed is extremely expensive!
Holyhead - Dublin has had a wide variety of faster vessels. In the heady, pre-Ryanair, tax free, low fuel price days of the 90s, the HSS Stena Explorer should have been the ferry of the future, carrying 1500 passengers, 300+ cars and a decent amount of freight (though still nothing like current vessels on tbe route) across the Irish Sea in 99 minutes and in a very comfortable setting. Inititally she was running up to 5 daily crossings. As circumstances changed she became less viable, and was taken out of service at a very young age.
Stena have also run a superfast class vessel on the route, capable of 30 knots but with a proper displacement hull form and carry a much bigger freight load. I don't think they ever really used her speed, the gain would be pretty minimal for a massive increase in consumption. She has since been replaced with a 23ish knot ferry with a much larger freight capacity, that is much more suitable for the route.
There is still the Dublin Swift on this route for Irish Ferries, which just about manages to maintain her niche, but crosses a little slower than her maximum speed.
The fastest car carrying fast ferries can just about scrape 50 knots, but they work on the more sheltered waters of the river Plate in South America. You could probably get a 90 minute crossing with one of these vessels, but there would be a huge amount of delays and cancellations.
Fast ferry tech has moved on, and I could imagine a future 150m Incat vessel that could carry a much larger amount of freight being viable, perhaps at a speed of 25-30 knots and around a 2-2.5 hour crossing time, possibly on electricity, though the charging infrastructure would be extremely difficult.
Nobody has mentioned the Leeds Station - Armories water service yet. They call themselves a taxi but operate like a bus.
Link to their website. No timetable on there. Card payment only.
www.leedsdock.com
Link to their website. No timetable on there. Card payment only.
Water Taxis | Leeds Dock
Our two Dutch Water Taxis ferry residents, workers and visitors to and from Leeds Dock and Granary Wharf.
www.leedsdock.com
Cloud Strife
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Feb 2014
- Messages
- 2,058
The Fynshav-Bøjden service is also due to go fully electric, with batteries that will be charged in 20-25 minutes at port and with autonomous sailing/docking capabilities. The route is fairly long as well at around 14-15km.
Generally speaking, speed isn't *that* important commercially. This was one of the causes of the Estonia disaster, as the Estonian state-owned operator didn't realise or understand that a comfortable sailing was far more productive in terms of passenger spend than keeping to the timetable. Even for freight, a reliable timetable is much more important than the actual speed of the crossings.
This is why, for instance, Dover-Calais is now between 90-100 minutes when 75 minutes was previously the norm. The ferries on the route (such as the new P&O Pioneer) could do it easily in 70 minutes, but there's simply nothing to be gained from sailing at that speed when you want passengers to have time to sit down, eat and then spend in the duty free shop. Generally speaking though, you can look at Tallinn-Helsinki to see where the sweet spot is: it's about 27kn (50km/h).
CalMac are at breaking point. The two new large vessels won't compensate for the aging larger ferries, and unless there's funding from somewhere to build at least another three large vessels, the network is going to collapse sooner rather than later. They've been very, very lucky so far, but I don't know how much longer they can go on like this.
Flying Snail
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Dec 2006
- Messages
- 1,778
Anything over 20-22kn is very unusual these days, the extra fuel burn is rarely worth it. The only justification would be if it allowed an extra sailing to be squeezed in and there was enough demand to fill it.
CalMac have 6 large ferries due for delivery* in the next 18 months, hopefully they will be reliable out of the box but it should make a huge difference to their large ship routes and get them out of the disruptive and costly cycle of having to continuously emergency repair their failing older ships.
*Assuming there isn't another chapter to the Ferguson saga, but by all accounts the 4 due from Turkey are on schedule and on budget.
Elwyn
Member
About 15 years ago I had a chat with the Stena Line manager at Belfast. He confirmed what most people know ie that the main money earner is freight. He said that what his customers wanted was reliability rather than speed. With today’s “just in time economy” they wanted to know that their lorries would usually arrive in Belfast or Liverpool or Cairnryan in good time for a days business, and not be delayed by bad weather or berthing difficulties. The precise duration of the crossing was immaterial (indeed a longer crossing often gave the drivers a decent chance to eat and rest). Reliability was the key issue. So given the choice between high speed ferries which were very vulnerable in wind or a swell, and really difficult to dock in high winds, and the good old conventional vessel which travelled more slowly, but mostly was able to complete a crossing in any weather, they preferred the ordinary ferry every time.
He also mentioned that the high speed vessels gobbled the fuel up. Something like 4 times the consumption of a conventional vessel. Which is why Stena were getting rid of them.
He also mentioned that the high speed vessels gobbled the fuel up. Something like 4 times the consumption of a conventional vessel. Which is why Stena were getting rid of them.
AlastairFraser
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 2,883
I know speed isn't important on the current model, but I was thinking of a speed increase that would allow a UK-Ireland/IoM/other nearby islands route of around 3-4 hours, to be reasonably competitive with low cost airline timings once check in and transport to/from city centres are factored in (by reasonably competitive, I mean plus or minus 50 percent).
Something like Fishguard to Dublin could perhaps fit the bill (especially for more-time sensitive freight; it's over an hour quicker to Fishguard from London + most of the SE on average than Holyhead right now, apparently). That works out about 3.5 hrs at the 27kn average.
daodao
Established Member
Ferries can no longer compete with low cost airlines for foot passenger traffic on the major sea crossings from Great Britain to anywhere else - that market has "sailed" many years ago. Ferries on routes from Great Britain are now primarily for lorry traffic.
Why would one operate from Fishguard to Dublin rather than to Rosslare? It is far more cost-effective to keep the sea route as short as possible.
Last edited:
Flying Snail
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Dec 2006
- Messages
- 1,778
Yes, I had missed that, thanks. A relatively trivial delay but disappointing considering their current reliability issues, hopefully it won't propagate into further delays to the rest of the orders, anything less than 3 of the new ships by next summer will I expect be yet another year of major disruption.
AlastairFraser
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 2,883
A lot of ferry routes have been revived because of climate change conscious consumers recently, so don't write it off.
Why would one operate from Fishguard to Dublin? The amount of time it whacks off the London/SE/West Country/South Wales - Dublin and beyond freight route, that's why.
JGurney
Member
From my PoV, there is one route where a slower crossing, and so an arrival at a more civilised hour, would be a lot more attractive. I daresay there a sound technicial reasons why it can't be done, but the Newhaven - Dieppe overnight sailing arriving two or three hours later than the current 05:00 would make it much more appealing.
I presume that ship utilisation / depreciation or return on assets will have a lot to do with it. Cheaper fuel consumption from going slower won't make enough difference...
AlastairFraser
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 2,883
Maybe one slower route, but a faster route would unlock many more routes.
signed
Member
I am struggling to find evidence where a ferry is more environmentally friendly than a plane.
The fuel used on most large ferry/cargo ships is very infinitely more impactful than Jet fuel, though the progressive switch to Maritime Gas Oil (MGO) should be helping.
There are very few methods to calculate a boat impact as opposed to a plane impact on the environment.