Why do most modern train liveries look so similar?

[Tomos y Tanc]

There does need to be some limit on company branding or you get the situation that happened here in Wales where ATW painted everything that could be painted in Arriva's own patricular shade of turquoise. It was the ultimate 'paint job' given the standard of the rolling stock they were operating.

God only knows how much it will cost to redo every bench, bin and sign on the Wales & Borders network.

 

[MikeWM]

Not sure why GAs livery was added to those that all look the same. I cannot think of any livery in the UK that looks anything quite like that adorning the 745/755 fleet. It is also a hare rather than a rabbit that appears in ads & on the side of some units.

Fair point - now they have finally moved away from a predominantly white livery with their new trains, full marks for GA

 

[43096]

The only way a BR brand or a uniform national brand should be implemented is if it is all one organisation to begin with.

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind that. Plenty of McDonald's are franchises yet there is a consistency of product across the country, despite numerous different operators. So it is possible - you have to set the standards correctly in the franchise contract, though.

 

[RealTrains07]

The only liveries these days which look close to the same in any way is the Greater Anglia livery and Transport for Wales Livery and that is purely down to the similar uses of red and white in the colour scheme

 

[xotGD]

I imagine all of the companies hire the same couple of branding consultants to come up with the colour schemes.

It isn't restricted to rail - just look at how many airlines have a "Eurowhite" paint job.

 

[py_megapixel]

Isn't that just because having the chassis of the plane white makes it heat up less, or something?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I imagine all of the companies hire the same couple of branding consultants to come up with the colour schemes.

It isn't restricted to rail - just look at how many airlines have a "Eurowhite" paint job.

Exactly. Not too keen on the new Aer Lingus livery, the old all-green one was unique now it looks like one of many identikit white airline liveries.

 

[tbtc]

Certainly most bus liveries look the same, or similar, nowadays.

I think that buses look fairly generic because there's not much that can be done on a vehicle with massive black patches of glazing - a modern double decker will only have a fairly small stripe of "colour" at the front, with the majority of the vehicle taken up by a large chunk of solid black.

Given that operators often want to have a fairly dark skirt to hide dirt/spray, and fairly simple colours to make it simple to replace an accident damaged panel, it's no wonder that liveries tend to look pretty similar.

Same with train operators - factors mean many companies end up going for a similar result - the massive black windows make it a lot harder to have much colour (compared to the windows on BR stock) - the doors have to be a distinct colour - so you have a relatively white/ silver/grey livery, brightened up with a funky/vivid colour at the doors, often with a similar coloured swoop at the front. But trains can't be particularly complicated, given that trains run in each direction (unlike buses which work in only one direction, so can have a dynamic swoosh in that direction).

So liveries are fairly boring, but then the same people unhappy with bland/uniform colour schemes are often the ones who want us to reduce the entire network to one colour scheme (or maybe three colour schemes, depending on which version of BR you have a fetish for!)

There does need to be some limit on company branding or you get the situation that happened here in Wales where ATW painted everything that could be painted in Arriva's own patricular shade of turquoise. It was the ultimate 'paint job' given the standard of the rolling stock they were operating.

God only knows how much it will cost to redo every bench, bin and sign on the Wales & Borders network.

Probably not a lot, given that everything will need repainting every few years anyway - outdoor things like benches will need repainting from time to time (given the wear and tear that you'll have, exposed to the elements and large numbers of people sitting on them) - so replacing the old turquoise with a new red (or whatever) isn't going to make much difference in the context of all of the other other costs that a TOC endures (staffing, leasing etc)

 

[Energy]

Probably not a lot, given that everything will need repainting every few years anyway - outdoor things like benches will need repainting from time to time (given the wear and tear that you'll have, exposed to the elements and large numbers of people sitting on them) - so replacing the old turquoise with a new red (or whatever) isn't going to make much difference in the context of all of the other other costs that a TOC endures (staffing, leasing etc)

ATW also had the franchise for a long time so as things needed replacement/repainting over time they would get painted into Arriva colours and the items will add up which is why there was so much Arriva at the end of the franchise. Now franchises are shorter than what lots were, many franchises won't want a too complicated livery as it would cost them quite a bit to put on for such a short franchise while others will pick a simple livery as the trains are getting replaced anyway.

 

[Prestige15]

I do like the liveries in the old days, GNER, NX's Scotrail, Silverlink etc

 

[Mikey C]

Single colour (but not white white or grey) liveries can look smart if done well. The green GWR livery to me looks classy, similarly the purple EMR.

Indeed despite being operated by 2 different companies (First and Abellio), you can see a definite resemblance

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There does need to be some limit on company branding or you get the situation that happened here in Wales where ATW painted everything that could be painted in Arriva's own patricular shade of turquoise. It was the ultimate 'paint job' given the standard of the rolling stock they were operating.

God only knows how much it will cost to redo every bench, bin and sign on the Wales & Borders network.

Even with their own "brand everything!" compulsion, they couldn't remove every trace of FirstGroup from the 175s... with those units along with the 180s being ordered just as First were in their own teenage graffiti phase and had to paint everything purple or stick their italicised "f" on every available surface!

 

[xotGD]

Isn't that just because having the chassis of the plane white makes it heat up less, or something?

Bare aluminium is even better and saves weight.

 

[Speed43125]

Bare aluminium is even better and saves weight.

But unlike trains (amtrak etc) there is such thing as a mechanised carriage wash, so as labour has gone up in cost, airlines have shied away from it due to need to keep it clean.

 

[Mikey C]

But unlike trains (amtrak etc) there is such thing as a mechanised carriage wash, so as labour has gone up in cost, airlines have shied away from it due to need to keep it clean.

More importantly, most planes these days are at least partially composite, so you end up having to paint "plastic" to look like bare metal which never looks good

I don't think Airbus like unpainted planes either from a corrosion point of view

 

[Domh245]

More importantly, most planes these days are at least partially composite, so you end up having to paint "plastic" to look like bare metal which never looks good

I don't think Airbus like unpainted planes either from a corrosion point of view

Not to mention that planes aren't actually outfitted in bare metal but are instead finished in (various) lovely shades of green (or olive drab for Airbus) as a result of the anti-corrosion treatments applied!

 

[CBlue]

I know the variety is interesting but does any of the rebranding actually increase passenger numbers or have any benefit?

 

[LOL The Irony]

But unlike trains (amtrak etc) there is such thing as a mechanised carriage wash, so as labour has gone up in cost, airlines have shied away from it due to need to keep it clean.

And the need to constantly polish it, which eventually wears down the skin.

 

[Elshad]

Another way is bringing back the BR brand but not nationalised (if the govt continues with franchising/management contracts for example) however the idea is to appear more unified as if it were nationalised (but potentially risk upsetting others if they believed it was nationalised for real).

"British Rail" would be the main brand & name everyone will know & see (as SWR is really First MTR South Western Trains). All rolling stock across the country will look the same, decked in BR livery, which you will have look for the franchise holder's name hidden away somewhere. In the North, you could see "Northern Trains" in tiny form drowning in the more prominent BR livery. ScotRail and TfW have taken this approach. Also this reminds me of McDonalds restaurants being run by franchises whose names are invisible unless you know where to look.

Sounds good, but wouldn’t this really be more like “English Rail” unless you find a way of forcing ScotRail and TfW to drop their current liberties and adopt the BR livery?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Sounds good, but wouldn’t this really be more like “English Rail” unless you find a way of forcing ScotRail and TfW to drop their current liberties and adopt the BR livery?

Very good point, as Wales & Scotland are devolved as is NI, therefore the TfW, ScotRail and NI Railways brands would be retained. Possibly "English Railways" or "Rail England" something like that or split into sectors for the English regions on a similiar level to BR's Regional Railways & NSE.

 

[Mikey C]

Very good point, as Wales & Scotland are devolved as is NI, therefore the TfW, ScotRail and NI Railways brands would be retained. Possibly "English Railways" or "Rail England" something like that or split into sectors for the English regions on a similiar level to BR's Regional Railways & NSE.

Surely many "inter city" type services are National (Great Britain) services not English ones? It would be weird to have a London to Inverness or Holyhead service described as an English Rail one

 

[dorsetdesiro]

In regards to the transport giants branding everything - trains & stations - in their corporate colours like Arriva did in Wales and the FirstGroup pink-purple in previously operated franchises but is still quite apparent in GWR territory also probably in TPE and HT in smaller form where refurbishments are yet to begin.

Being in SWR-land, I’m very glad we’ve been spared from the pink-purple as we could otherwise be seeing “First South Western” if FirstGroup didn’t ditch its corporate branding years ago!

When West Midlands Trains began the WM franchise, I was bit taken back by the lurid bright green on lampposts on LNR and vivid orange on WMR, bit over the top I thought. They could have kept the old all-black London Midland colour scheme then change the light green part to darker green for LNR and to orange for WMR.

I note the current GA branding - red & white - is Abellio's corporate colours which gradually became GA's own as Abellio didn't carry this over to LNR, WMR and EMR also obviously instructed not to do so with Merseyrail & ScotRail.

Some TOCs don’t really bother with painting their lampposts like GWR which many older ones are still in pre-First Group cream/dark green with newer ones going unpainted. It could be argued it is best to leave unpainted for smoother future franchise changes however if the GWR livery is made permanent no matter which company or the DfT is running it, then it would be nice to see all lampposts painted in the current GWR forest green.

It’ll be interesting to see if the lampposts at EMR stations do get painted in aubergine, hopefully more pleasant than WMR’s garish orange-purple mix.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Surely many "inter city" type services are National (Great Britain) services not English ones? It would be weird to have a London to Inverness or Holyhead service described as an English Rail one

Maybe those intercity services that cross borders be joint-run with TfW & ScotRail, under a special brand like Enterprise run by both NI Railways and Irish Rail?

 

[Elshad]

Surely many "inter city" type services are National (Great Britain) services not English ones? It would be weird to have a London to Inverness or Holyhead service described as an English Rail one

That’s why I think the best solution would be to get ScotRail and TfW (actually the respective governments) to agree to adopt some common branding elements with England, for a unified look across GB (with some elements specific to each country e.g. bilingual elements in Welsh, operator branding).

 

[py_megapixel]

Being in SWR-land, I’m very glad we’ve been spared from the pink-purple as we could otherwise be seeing “First South Western” if FirstGroup didn’t ditch its corporate branding years ago!

DfT is allegedly strongly discouraging corporate branding at this point. You'll notice that we didn't see Arriva Trains North, nor Abellio London North Western or Abellio East Midlands.

I note the current GA branding - red & white - is Abellio's corporate colours which gradually became GA's own as Abellio didn't carry this over to LNR, WMR and EMR also obviously instructed not to do so with Merseyrail & ScotRail.

However, Abellio's red/white colour scheme is still in use abroad, for example in Germany.

 

[43096]

Maybe those intercity services that cross borders be joint-run with TfW & ScotRail, under a special brand like Enterprise run by both NI Railways and Irish Rail?

Trouble is there is no dedicated rolling stock for (as examples) King’s Cross-Edinburgh (and beyond) and Euston-Glasgow/Edinburgh: they inter-work with other England only services.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Trouble is there is no dedicated rolling stock for (as examples) King’s Cross-Edinburgh (and beyond) and Euston-Glasgow/Edinburgh: they inter-work with other England only services.

You could be correct, this seems to complicate matters further.

Say if a new "Rail England" brand to be introduced and the cross-border intercity services, managed by RE-TfW-ScotRail, to be branded for example as "Entente".

The fleets of LNER, GWR, AWC, TPE and XC could be divided up with some going to "Entente" and others transferring to RE.

Some will join RE's other express services currently run by other TOCs. The rail fleet understandably will be varied to begin with but will continue to be dedicated only for the services they run (like 444s to Weymouth, 810s to Sheffield etc) however all will come under the single RE Express livery. The express fleet possibly could become standardised gradually over time (a long way off in the future) such as electrification & conversion from third rail to overhead, new rolling stock orders etc.

The cross-border fleet for "Entente", coming from LNER, AWC, GWR, TPE and XC, mostly consist of Hitachi AT300s with 390s & 397s.

"Entente" to operate from (also stopping at English stations on the way):
Euston-Glasgow/Edinburgh
Euston-Holyhead
Kings Cross-Edinburgh/Aberdeen/Inverness
Paddington-Swansea/Carmarthen
Cardiff-Penzance
Manchester/Liverpool-Glasgow/Edinburgh

Also there are cross-border regional services already run by TfW and ScotRail. GWR's Cardiff-Portsmouth/Brighton/Taunton services to run in RE livery.

Complicated I know! Ha ha!

 

[dorsetdesiro]

So for example LNER's current services from KGX:

To Leeds - branded as Rail England Express
To Aberdeen - branded as Entente

Both RE Express & Entente will operate Azumas at first as these came from LNER

 

[stj]

Same reason most cars are the same colour eg black or grey?

 

[RealTrains07]

You could be correct, this seems to complicate matters further.

Say if a new "Rail England" brand to be introduced and the cross-border intercity services, managed by RE-TfW-ScotRail, to be branded for example as "Entente".

The fleets of LNER, GWR, AWC, TPE and XC could be divided up with some going to "Entente" and others transferring to RE.

Some will join RE's other express services currently run by other TOCs. The rail fleet understandably will be varied to begin with but will continue to be dedicated only for the services they run (like 444s to Weymouth, 810s to Sheffield etc) however all will come under the single RE Express livery. The express fleet possibly could become standardised gradually over time (a long way off in the future) such as electrification & conversion from third rail to overhead, new rolling stock orders etc.

The cross-border fleet for "Entente", coming from LNER, AWC, GWR, TPE and XC, mostly consist of Hitachi AT300s with 390s & 397s.

"Entente" to operate from (also stopping at English stations on the way):
Euston-Glasgow/Edinburgh
Euston-Holyhead
Kings Cross-Edinburgh/Aberdeen/Inverness
Paddington-Swansea/Carmarthen
Cardiff-Penzance
Manchester/Liverpool-Glasgow/Edinburgh

Also there are cross-border regional services already run by TfW and ScotRail. GWR's Cardiff-Portsmouth/Brighton/Taunton services to run in RE livery.

Complicated I know! Ha ha!

Surely this defeats the purpose of this thread as more services will look the exact same?