Why do so many people want to avoid their fare?

[Banana]

I'm am genuinely staggered with the number of people that seem to want to avoid their fare. Every day there are new threads in this forum about people seeking advice as to how to minimise their guilt.

Why do people give them advice? The most recent example is a nurse that thinks it's ok to not pay their fare for what seems to be an extended period.

What other services is it acceptable to not pay for?

Cinema?
Football Match?
British Airways?

Some very disappointing people out there IMHO...

 

[najaB]

I'm am genuinely staggered with the number of people that seem to want to avoid their fare. Every day there are new threads in this forum about people seeking advice as to how to minimise their guilt.

Why do people give them advice?.

I can only speak for myself, but I never give advice on the basis of helping people to 'get away with' anything.

I only participate in threads where the poster appears to either be innocent of wrongdoing to or to genuinely acknowledge that they have done wrong, in which case I think it is morally sound to try to help them minimise the impact of their actions.

 

[cuccir]

There are many hundreds if not thousands of people out there every day who don't pay their fare. We see a tiny tiny fraction of them on here. There have been a few recently, but then there are weeks without any: I guess that's just the way it goes.

I concur with NajaB. The majority (maybe 4 in every 5) of people we see on here have made a one-off mistake, some innocently (misplaced tickets, not understanding the system) some with greater culpability but who recognise their mistake (a typical one is those who've asked for a 'short' ticket at their destination) and some through laziness (the 'I arrived too late at the station' crowd). Of the remaining 20%, most are chancers who've had it coming to them, and maybe 5% (about 1 in every 20) were actually in the right and are being ripped off in some way (see here for example).

From my perspective: none of us are perfect, and most who we help are facing an area they know nothing about, where the choices that they make can have huge consequences in ways that people may not expect. Laying out some of the facts in a clear way, which is frank but sympatheic, can hopefully make the path to an outcome which is suitbale for both the 'offender' and the TOC a smoother one. And where we see several cases a year where genuinely innocent people are being threatened with prosecution, we've got to accept that to help those people, we need to deal with the vast majority who have done whatever it is that they are accused of!

It's also, frankly, interesting to do and to continue to find out more about the law and ticketing practice. I find a satisfaction in hearing about cases which end up with a situation where the original poster has learned something and can move on with their lives, while the TOC has also been suitably compensated if required.

It's notable that the nurse you reference has only received 3 replies, much lower than most threads: I think that tells you that people who come on here having deliberately and repeatedly evaded fares on multiple occasions, with little to no remorse, will receive very little help or support.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I see it on the buses all the time in my area of London. Women with pushchairs deliberately board at the exit door and make no attempt to tap in at the entrance. But that's another story

There are rather a lot of dishonest people out there who will nearly always chance it if they know they can get away with it

 

[me123]

What other services is it acceptable to not pay for?

Cinema?

It'd amaze you how many people do just that. Once you're through the entrance, you can pretty much walk around at will and hop between the screens. And there are plenty of people who do this, and you can see them. I sometimes go and see opera in the cinema, and they're particularly noticeable there because they sneak in half way through and last about a minute before they realise what they're watching.

There's a belief amongst many people that theft from a major corporation is somehow acceptable because that corporation is mega rich. TOCs certainly fall into that category. When I worked in a supermarket, it truly amazed me just how much low level theft went on. I saw quite a lot of people take reduced stickers from a cheap item (bread or veg) and put it onto a more pricy one (steak, alcohol etc) and quite a lot of people would openly ask me for the person in front's loyalty points if they didn't want them (and accused me of being a jobsworth when I told them where to go!). It obviously didn't occur to these people that this is basically stealing.

So it's not just the railways. It's widespread. It's just relatively quite easy on the railways (see the other thread). Whereas something like a BA flight (to use one of your examples) is exceptionally difficult to get onto without paying for various reasons.

 

[Hadders]

It's not just the rail industry. Retail theft probably accounts for around 0.5% of turnover (retail shrinkage which includes theft is more than this but it also includes things that are 'self inflicted')

Doesn't sound much but Tesco had a UK turnover of £37billion last year, so while theft as a proportion of turnover is low in absolute terms it's a large number - £185million.

The rail industry farebox is around £10 billion so there's bound to be a large amount of evaded fares in absolute terms. The thing is it's quite easy to get the 'low handing fruit' by using things like barriers and penalty fares. Getting the last bit is extremely hard, costs the most money and is the most dangerous and disruptive to collect.

 

[neilmc]

It's relatively easy to not pay your fare, whether by purpose or not, because of several factors, including:
- a large number of unstaffed stations
- TVMs which either don't work or don't offer the ticket requested
- TVMs hidden away, or on the opposite platform to the one in which the passenger is travelling
- a staffed station where the ticket seller goes walkabout, or incurs a ridiculously long queue such that passengers who've arrived in good time to purchase tickets are at risk of missing their train
- a lack of ticket sales on board train, including many journeys on which staff should be able to come through the train and sell tickets but simply don't bother.

Thus we see many innocent people arriving at their destination ticketless and incurring allegations of fare-dodging simply by the inefficiencies/laziness of the rail operators and their staff. These people need help and advice, not to mention the disputes where people who have perfectly valid but unusual tickets are also treated as fraudsters. Alongside the admitted fare dodgers are many, many people who keep this sub-forum lively just by having been badly treated as rail customers.

Plus there is the common perception that the rail industry as a whole is one big fraudulent cash cow feeding on people who have little choice but to pay the exorbitant fares thus any means to reduce ones outlay, legal or otherwise, can be sympathised with or even encouraged. People who feel cheated have little moral compunction to be honest themselves.

 

[Hadders]

One other thing to bear in mind about the rail industry is how much extra money do they rake in by selling more expensive fares to passengers than needed.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'm happy to give advice to people in the court process, likely outcomes and options. I would never advise on loopholes or avoidance.

So few people in the UK have ever been in a court, let alone played an active part in the process.

By giving some pertinent, and hopefully correct advice, we can reduce the pressure on the court system and achieve a speedier outcome.

 

[yorkie]

I'm am genuinely staggered with the number of people that seem to want to avoid their fare. Every day there are new threads in this forum about people seeking advice as to how to minimise their guilt.

Are there? In most cases where the person is clearly guilty, they seem to want to be looking for assistance with apologising for their error and compensating the train company and avoiding a criminal record. Such an outcome is actually in the best interest of both the train company and the defendant (not to mention the reduction in pressure on the courts!)

Why do people give them advice?

Who are 'them'? The reasons will vary, but include the reasons I mention above.

The most recent example is a nurse that thinks it's ok to not pay their fare for what seems to be an extended period.

Having done a search, I see you are referring to this thread: Settlement fine/cost, this person accepts their guilt and wants to know the likely cost of a fine or out of court settlement. There was no attempt to "minimise their guilt" nor could we give any advice on "minimising guilt"!

There have been 1,282 views and only 3 people replied and I see absolutely nothing wrong with any of the replies.

My advice would be not to read the Disputes & Prosecutions forum if it causes frustration.

Sometimes passengers cheat the rail industry out of money, sometimes the rail industry cheats passengers out of money, but most of the time people simply travel using a valid fare for their journey without incident.

 

[shredder1]

Its rife throughout society now corruption and dishonesty from top to bottom, people read about MP`s fiddling this and that and even some of the the rail companies are not whiter than white, its a very sad state of affairs and down to individual morals I suppose, fortunately I`d like to think, most people still have them.

 

[najaB]

Its rife throughout society now corruption and dishonesty from top to bottom...

No more or less than it has ever been.

 

[the101]

Someone Tweeted East Midlands Trains recently that she was annoyed that her ticket had not been checked on either her outward or return journey. After getting the stock 'very sorry to hear this, we endeavour to...' reply from EMT she told them that she was annoyed because she would have been able to save some money had she known there would be no checks. That seems to be a common attitude to paying the fare from a surprisingly high proportion of travellers, and they have no shame about it.

 

[jacksonbang]

Every day there are new threads in this forum about people seeking advice as to how to minimise their guilt.

.

I'm pretty sure the amount of fare-dodging is similar to shoplifting or illegal downloading but I don't think I've ever seen thread on here asking how to trick the system. What I see is people who have been caught *possibly* tricking the system not realising how serious the situation they find themselves in and their reasons for doing so are varied.

The vast majority of people know right from wrong and those that don't would pursue their attempts to deceive in many areas of life. I've even heard of cases where train staff on a premium, although definitely not high speed, service purposely *seemingly* disallow valid tickets - even ganging up together to "get one over" on the correctly acting customer. Up North I heard that revenue protection stings are regularly carried out when customers have been trained to believe they could buy a ticket at the end of the journey due to laughably bad opportunities at their starting station. I wonder if these people feel guilty about their tricks?

 

[AlterEgo]

Someone Tweeted East Midlands Trains recently that she was annoyed that her ticket had not been checked on either her outward or return journey. After getting the stock 'very sorry to hear this, we endeavour to...' reply from EMT she told them that she was annoyed because she would have been able to save some money had she known there would be no checks. That seems to be a common attitude to paying the fare from a surprisingly high proportion of travellers, and they have no shame about it.

People only say that to spite the TOC, it's rarely serious. It is social media after all.

 

[shredder1]

No more or less than it has ever been.

I`ve been around since 1951, society has definitely changed.

 

[Agent_c]

Its rife throughout society now corruption and dishonesty from top to bottom, people read about MP`s fiddling this and that and even some of the the rail companies are not whiter than white, its a very sad state of affairs and down to individual morals I suppose, fortunately I`d like to think, most people still have them.

I think that you're definitely looking through rose tinted glasses... I mean there are no rotten boroughs, and if we look back at the number of scammers profiting from Railway Mania....

But on to the topic.

I don't think there's any harm in making sure the railway companies are following the right rules and procedures. After all, how can they expect us to follow the rules if they won't bother to even try to do the same.

That said.

I don't think there's many (if any at all) cases where people have intentionally made a mistake and not at least superficially regretful when coming here... I do have to wonder how many those are just saying what they think we want to hear in order to get hep and sympathy though.

 

[najaB]

I`ve been around since 1951, society has definitely changed.

It's changed, but there was never a golden age when politicians were above reproach (rotten boroughs) nor when people didn't engage in corrupt practices (South Seas Company - 1720, Overend, Gurney and Company - 1886).

 

[MikeWh]

It's changed, but there was never a golden age when politicians were above reproach (rotten boroughs) nor when people didn't engage in corrupt practices (South Seas Company - 1720, Overend, Gurney and Company - 1886).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Sure there have always been bad eggs (go back to Judas Iscarriot if you want), but there is definitely more now than 30-40 years ago.

 

[Deerfold]

Or as Horace wrote in 20 BC:

Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt.

 

[najaB]

...but there is definitely more now than 30-40 years ago.

Not really. We're just more aware of it thanks to the pervasiveness of media (social and traditional).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Sure there have always been bad eggs (go back to Judas Iscarriot if you want), but there is definitely more now than 30-40 years ago.

Nah, it's just that in the age of 24-hour news you actually hear about it.

Look at Ernest Marples, giving his own company the contract to build the Hammersmith Flyover (defectively, as it's turned out), or John Poulson bribing (among others) Reginald Maudling, who was both Chancellor and Home Secretary (incidentally responsible for the cover-up after Bloody Sunday) during the time he was being bribed.

The idea of the Home Secretary or the Chancellor being bribed these days would have the public full of apoplexy. Back in the 60s, people were much quicker to bend their knee to authority.

And getting slightly more on topic, some of the more important railway caselaw about fare avoidance dates from the 1880s.

That seems to be a common attitude to paying the fare from a surprisingly high proportion of travellers, and they have no shame about it.

When I've spent £13 on a single train ticket and the barriers are wide open, there's no guard checks and the destination station is bolted up for the night, I'll admit I feel that I might as well have not bothered paying. It doesn't mean that I think fare evasion is right- I wouldn't have paid if I did!- but I do end up thinking that I'm a mug for playing by the rules when nobody makes the slightest effort to enforce them.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just to add to the idea that this isn't new, it's interesting that the OP mentions football matches. There are many of my father's age with stories of climbing or being lifted over the fence at Leeds Road.

 

[Panda]

Not sure what the purpose of this thread really is. This is a forum where people can come for help when they have knowingly or unknowingly done something wrong. IMHO, there aren't THAT many new threads each day.

I understand (don't agree with) the reasoning of some that "the train will be running with me on it or not" combined "my ticket never gets checked any way" - I understand how people can start thinking that it is okay. In your own question about football matches and the like, imagine if football games were just an open stadium with no allocated seating and no ticket checks. I bet you there would be a fair amount of people who attend those and don't pay. I don't think either that these are the same people who would think it is okay to walk out of a shop with a loaf of bread because it is not security tagged.

 

[shredder1]

I think that you're definitely looking through rose tinted glasses... I mean there are no rotten boroughs, and if we look back at the number of scammers profiting from Railway Mania....

The railway mania was a little before my time mate, I said 1951, not 1851, and I've never worn glasses tinted or otherwise, I lived it, lol

 

[MichaelAMW]

When I've spent £13 on a single train ticket and the barriers are wide open, there's no guard checks and the destination station is bolted up for the night, I'll admit I feel that I might as well have not bothered paying. It doesn't mean that I think fare evasion is right- I wouldn't have paid if I did!- but I do end up thinking that I'm a mug for playing by the rules when nobody makes the slightest effort to enforce them.

I strongly disagree with that, because in a free democracy we have permission, so to speak, to live without undue interference as long as we abide by the rules, so the person who should be making the greatest effort to enforce the rules is you yourself. It's not so different from the apparently widespread belief that 30 mph speed limits on the road or the mobile phone rule only apply if you can, or could, get caught, leading to aggressive "road rage" responses if anyone ever dare ask another person to stick to the law.

 

[Geronimo]

I'm am genuinely staggered with the number of people that seem to want to avoid their fare. Every day there are new threads in this forum about people seeking advice as to how to minimise their guilt....

Some very disappointing people out there IMHO...

Well if you are genuinely interested, you could do worse than read Gabor's 'Everybody Does It!': Crime by the Public. Really good book.

 

[fowler9]

I'm am genuinely staggered with the number of people that seem to want to avoid their fare. Every day there are new threads in this forum about people seeking advice as to how to minimise their guilt.

Why do people give them advice? The most recent example is a nurse that thinks it's ok to not pay their fare for what seems to be an extended period.

What other services is it acceptable to not pay for?

Cinema?
Football Match?
British Airways?

Some very disappointing people out there IMHO...

Can I have a mad guess at "To save money". Doesn't make it right.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Sure there have always been bad eggs (go back to Judas Iscarriot if you want), but there is definitely more now than 30-40 years ago.

Yeah, erm, I don't believe that is true for starters. You think the world is more dangerous or crime ridden now than when we used to have the Slave Trade or dropped nuclear bombs on Japan or went around the world colonizing? I reckon you will find it is various forms of media making more people more aware of what is going on.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Nah, it's just that in the age of 24-hour news you actually hear about it.

Look at Ernest Marples, giving his own company the contract to build the Hammersmith Flyover (defectively, as it's turned out),

Considering the poor maintenance (there was little preventative maintenance) and the fact the council spread salt on the bridge deck (corroding the strengthening cables) as they did not want to pay the electricity bill for the heated elements (plus the fact the elements finally broke down in the mid 80s), I think 50 years in its original state carrying many more vehicles than it was designed to indicates that it was not built defectively. It had reached its design life.

It is interesting to note that the new repairs only give the bridge another 15 years. The original design lasted over 3 times that long.

Now I agree with you that Marples was a wrong 'un, but that bridge was built properly.

 

[EssexCommuter]

I've been with friends (and I should add this is only a couple of people) on the underground and had them question why I'm tapping in/out at stations without barriers. It has never occurred to me not to!
However my response has been that they wouldn't drive their car without fuel, and they wouldn't fill up their car without paying...
They've not questioned, or failed to tap in/out since - it may be that they're appeasing me, but at least it's a bit more revenue being collected.