dominic_9*
New Member
Hi guys i am wondering why lots of the uk train companies still have the HST class 43 because i thought GWR had retired them?
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Why do some companies still use HSTs?
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PHILIPE
Veteran Member
GWR haven't retired them completely. They have 11 modified sets with possibly more to come which have been converted into 4 Car formations and are used for local services that operate along Main Lines. Scotrail have similar and these have been transferred in from GWR and modified over time. LNER are gradually losing theirs some of which are in the process of moving to EMR for a limited period to replace the existing ones which are less PRM compliant XC have a few and will continue for the foreseeable future because there is nothing to replace them. Nothing can go until there is something to replace it.
Anyway, welcome to the Forum and look forward to future discussions.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Because they either haven't received replacement stock yet or because they have refurbished them for further use.
ScotRail and GWR have shortened sets for InterCity and Regional traffic respectively while CrossCountry have HSTs for the busier trains requiring more seats.
EMR still have HSTs because their replacement trains haven't been that long ordered and thus aren't in service yet but are swapping their own sets for ex-LNER ones that are more accessible compliant.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Correct answer. Close thread.
(They are great but old and need upgrade works to meet current standards. That isnt impossible but has to be commercially viable)
RailWonderer
Established Member
Aaargh. Beat me to saying that!Correct answer. Close thread.
Because the Scotrail and GWR bean counters looked at the options (including promised timescales- missed however!) between getting brand new stock and operating modified short sets and the HSTs came back as the winner. Similarly with Cross Country when they needed to increase capacity. Meanwhile on the Midland Mainline the delays to franchising resulted in replacement stock not being ordered earlier.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
LNER ceased using them altogether in December.
I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate description.
IET was designed to replace HST's on GWR and LNER which has what its done. It didn't cover replacement of HST's to Devon and Cornwall but GWR opted for 802's in the end.
The delay to electrification and reduced scope meant that the cascade of Turbo units would not be available in the original quantity or timescale hence GWR came up with short HST's sets as an alternative, they aren't exactly a cheap solution.
The Scots wanted an Intercity train and accepted a bid that proposed short HST's.
Cross Country only had a very small fleet and the option was taken to retain them and make them PRM compliant not helped by delays to re franchising XC.
2392
Member
Bear in mind cascading older locos/dmus/stock etc has always been part of railway operations. Going back to the sixties when the Gresley A4s were on the way out, the G.M. of Scottish Region jumped at them. He then used them on the 3 hour Glasgow-Aberdeen service, thus bringing them full circle so to speak. As the original 4 "Silver" locos had been built/used on the 4 hour Silver Jubilee service Newcastle to London. Granted the service didn't really warrant such a prestigious machine, but, Hey! What the heck! A Black five would have been suffice......
A few factors
1. Many (thought not all) of the major upgrade programs that have replaced a lot of rolling stock have been focused on Electrified lines.
2. There has been a bunch of pressure to withdraw pacers due to a combination of expensive PRM mods and general dislike for the class.
3. Many electrification programs were delayed and/or scaled back.
4. Franchising is a freaking mess with repeated disasters and short-term extensions/management contracts.
5. Overall passenger numbers have been growing (until covid)
The result of all this is that over the last few years there have been few if-any surplus DMUs, those that have become available have been quickly snapped up to strengthen services. Orders for new trains have often proved inadequate and/or faced delays forcing companies to retain stock that was originally intended to be retired or cascaded.
I am sure that spending money on putting new doors into heavy old trains and running trains designed for "intercity" work on "regional" routes would not be any operators preferred long-term choice, but in many cases they can't think long-term, they have a problem to solve ASAP. New trains take a long-time to deliver and even longer to pay off their build cost.
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But the late-ordered replacement stock isn't going to replace the HSTs on the Midland Main Line. Pre-COVID that was going to be a combination of the Corby electrification releasing 222s, plus the arrival of the Hull Trains 180s, a recast timetable, and tighter diagramming. Then there weren't going to be any HSTs working for EMR past the end of this year. Whether the Corby electrification will in fact be ready by year end, giving the delays caused by COVID-19 which affects both the infrastructure (though not too much) and the release of the Class 360 EMUs which will work it, and the crew training on 360s and 180s, is anyone's guess at the moment.
The brand new trains ordered by EMR are not due for 18 months or more, and have always been intended to replace the 222s and 180s.
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