For example Eccles, a large town only receives an hourly service. Yes there is also a Metrolink stop but the tram goes around the houses. Then you have stations such as Humphrey Park which receive a 2 hourly service at best. Why is this?
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Could stations in Manchester receive a better service?
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Howardh
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Probably lack of custom and wanting more non-stop trains from other towns. But the trains will have poor custom if they aren't available to catch!
Often wondered why the whole of Greater Manchestre couldn't have been turned into a metro tram/train region, but against that is most of the lines are long-distance (eg Manchester>Bolton>Preston and beyond, so you would have an unhappy coalition of fast through trains and metro stoppers.
But on the plus side the tram system is growing and most is seperate from the heavy rail. As you say, Eccles does have a tram stop, so why increase the rail service?
Mind you, the thoery of using trams falls down when you consider Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley which are nowhere near trams, and the bus is still an hour into Manchester and what few trains there are don't take you to your destination (eg Piccadilly) easily. last night the timetabe from Moses Gate would have left me standing at Salford Crescent for 20'+ for a connection to Piccadilly.
Often wondered why the whole of Greater Manchestre couldn't have been turned into a metro tram/train region, but against that is most of the lines are long-distance (eg Manchester>Bolton>Preston and beyond, so you would have an unhappy coalition of fast through trains and metro stoppers.
But on the plus side the tram system is growing and most is seperate from the heavy rail. As you say, Eccles does have a tram stop, so why increase the rail service?
Mind you, the thoery of using trams falls down when you consider Moses Gate, Farnworth and Kearsley which are nowhere near trams, and the bus is still an hour into Manchester and what few trains there are don't take you to your destination (eg Piccadilly) easily. last night the timetabe from Moses Gate would have left me standing at Salford Crescent for 20'+ for a connection to Piccadilly.
TfGM have an aspiration for 2 trains per hour at stations which get at least 250,000 journeys per annum. Eccles is closer to 150,000 so getting a better service won't be high on their list of priorities, especially when there's Metrolink as well. With the exception of Denton and Reddish South, which don't get a proper service and a few stations like Altrincham which get a low level of service compared to current usage, I don't think most stations in Greater Manchester are badly served. Some stations like the local stations between Hazel Grove and Stockport and between Cheadle Hulme and Levenshulme seem to have an over provision of services.
Bletchleyite
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A proper Takt would help that issue, of course - design the timetable and infrastructure for interchange based on journeys people actually want to make (for which you don't just survey train users, you survey people who are driving because the train doesn't suit, too).
....which would still probably indicate a preference for fast Bolton services than trains stopping at Moses Gate et al.
To *really* get transfer onto rail in the Farnworth area and get good connections, you'd be looking at a 4tph service to make it competitive with road and buses. But then you run up against none of those stations being particularly good for parking etc.
Problem is that Takts are not purely about the timetable - they need supporting infrastructure too to make them work.
Howardh
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A valid route with no extra cost is the 1709 Moses Gate to Manchester Piccadilly; catch the 1709 train back to Bolton, - cross the platform and get a fast train (1722) to Manchester from there going through...Moses Gate. £4.60 single (peak).
Bletchleyite
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Most Merseyrail stations don't have much in the way of parking either. But that doesn't matter because (other than at the outer reaches) people don't really railhead to them, their custom is from within walking distance (so up to about 1km radius, realistically). Not even much cycling to them; Aughton Park has a couple of racks which are literally never in use.
Urban local rail is quite different from rural rail and London commuting in that sense.
Howardh
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It was noted a few months ago that plans were affot to bring Bolton a tram service. Bolton doesn't need this - not the center anyway, but those outlying districts such as Moses Gate, Farnworth, Highfield, Little Hulton etc which despite being heavily populated are in a desert regarding anything other than bus services. As I alluded to, even though closer to Manchester than Bolton centre it takes a dreadfully long time to get to Manchester by bus.
I think eventually they will extend the guided busway northwards using as much of the old rail bed as they can, getting to the centre of Farnworth.
Back to the OP and Eccles, places around there such as Patricroft are linked to the tram stop in Eccles by a short bus journey, so in many respects they are better off than south Bolton. I do agree that the route though is windy and time-consuming, a much more frequent rai service would be desirable, but for the reasons alluded to, is inpractical.
I think eventually they will extend the guided busway northwards using as much of the old rail bed as they can, getting to the centre of Farnworth.
Back to the OP and Eccles, places around there such as Patricroft are linked to the tram stop in Eccles by a short bus journey, so in many respects they are better off than south Bolton. I do agree that the route though is windy and time-consuming, a much more frequent rai service would be desirable, but for the reasons alluded to, is inpractical.
Bletchleyite
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I think that Bolton tram plan wouldn't serve those places, it was a resurrection of the original Picc-Vic plan to turn left at Radcliffe.
Howardh
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Indeed, I think that would be folly - serving the wrong areas. Which is why I suggested they look at extending the current guided bus network.
It is possible to extend the current route southwards through Eccles using old track bed, and as I want, extending northwards into southern Bolton. So not only are those areas better connected with Manchester, they also connect the towns to the west of Manchester as well, win-win!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I guess you're proposing a new branch to Walkden then running on-road to those three places, but closing those three stations?
With the line having been wired, I wonder if giving them a better service (half hourly perhaps) would actually be feasible? EMUs accelerate far faster than DMUs - a rattling old Pacer must surely clog up more paths than a 331. The Southport DMU really doesn't seem to be the most sensible thing to serve them with.
Howardh
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Certainly not, wherever did you get that idea?!
On the other hand, they aren't in the easiest locations. Kearsley out in the sticks with steep steps, Farnworth not particularly near the centre, and Moses Gate adjacent to a very busy road and little housing. As far as I know none have parking so the case for keeping them open isn't convincing. But I hate to see stations close and according to Wiki Moses Gate has around 20k pax/year; Farnworth more than double that.
Many return tickets from these stations to Manchester are sold from Bolton as it's the same price and gives people flexibility on to go back to Bolton if needed. Official passenger figures probably underestimate numbers using these stations. They have also only recently had an evening service and since then there have been strikes, engineering work and covid. Post covid I would expect passenger numbers to increase sharply from these stations.
If you wired Atherton, then bi-modes for running on to Southport would be what the Doctor would order.
True; they basically had no service during the Farnworth tunnel works, and a heavily disrupted one with strikes and weekend works until 2019.... and then Covid!
Patricroft springs to mind.
They do have quite a few frequent bus routes that parallel the rail service as well.
If you're going to combine inter-city/inter-urban services with a good suburban service, then you need the infrastructure to do it. And not only was so much removed in the Manchester area during the period of decline, but the land was disposed of (or bits of it were disposed of), so no straightforward restorations are possible. Can Manchester ever have a really good long-distance service toegether with a really good local service now?
HS2 and NPR are probably the best shot.
TfGM's threshold for 2 trains per hour was 100,000 journeys per annum, last time I saw it. 250,000 would be a very high threshold for this and yes, there would be a fair few stations that are over-served if this is the policy. I susoect the figure is still 100,000. If you know where to find the current policy, please could you post a link?
I thought it was 500,000 for 4tph and 250,000 for 2tph, I don't think there was a 3tph threshold. I do recall when the additional 'South Manchester' services were proposed it was proposed that stations with annual usage of at least 200,000 would get 2tph instead of 1tph as it was proposed Hale would not get additional services but Northwich would, even though Arriva later decided they would stop all services at Hale in their proposal but unfortunately the proposal has never become an actual service.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Does anyone see the massive, massive, self-perpetuating flaw in that?
I was quite disappointed with the service to Eccles. I used to travel from Leeds to Eccles to visit my brother in Salford Royal a few years ago. TPE to Victoria and then hopefully a short journey of 5 to 10 minutes to Eccles. But no, I had to wait at Victoria for 30 minutes for a connection. Even so, this was significantly quicker than the tram and the bus. Bearing in mind it was a swift journey from Victoria to Eccles I was surprised there wasn't a better service.
Not sure what the current situation is now, is it any better ?
Not sure what the current situation is now, is it any better ?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
With the tram it's worth bearing in mind that (and it might be a conspiracy theory, but it makes sense) it received EU funding because it ran to Eccles, but all they really wanted was to get it to Salford Quays. The best way to get to Eccles from central Manchester is the bus.
No, because if it was up to TfGM we wouldn’t have any heavy rail.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Given how Metrolink offers a superior service at a lower operating cost, why does that surprise you?
That would be the case apart from the fact the 33 only runs every 30/60 minutes. Why there isn’t a more frequent service along Eccles New Road god only knows....
Bletchleyite
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I'm sure it used to be much more frequent than that (4bph?) - maybe people are putting up with the slow tram ride because it's nicer than a bus?
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