Why do we have to press a button to open train doors in the UK and European countries?

[RT4038]

Certainly out of use by 1962 when I started commuting to school by train. I do remember the buttons being used once on a unit that was being used for parcels duty before Christmas, presumably to stop people jumping on.

Somebody above mentioned buttons on the Underground. They were initially provided on the D78s and I remember a drunk on the platform at Aldgate East hammering on the unopened door. I suspect that the occupants of that car were relieved that he didn't work out how to press the button.

I believe door open buttons were provided on certain pre-war Underground stock ('O' & 'Q' built around 1935-8 on the District). I am unsure when they were converted to all door operation, but certainly long before withdrawal.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I've never been on a train where the doors open automatically without a button, I wasn't aware such things existed!

For many years in parts of the London commuter area the only time you would encounter sliding doors was on London Underground. It wasn't until the 1990s that trains with sliding doors were the norm rather than the exception. Quite sensibly for trains that were to be used some of the time on rural routes, British Rail did not copy the practice of London Transport.

 

[GatwickDepress]

These are not in Asia though - I have never seen buttons in Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Shanghai, Beijing, Singapore.

Those are all very dense areas of Asia, so I'm not surprised if trains there didn't have door buttons. You can certainly find them in Japan though and the etiquette there is much the same as here; close the door behind you if it's a cold day and the train is dwelling for a long time, etc.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I have also travelled to multiple European cities including Helsinki, Stockholm, Prague, Kaliningrad, Riga, etc. I can say that in most of the cities where there is a railway system (including tram, underground, suburban rail), it's strange that less than half of the doors are pressed open at most of the stations in the city.

This seems to answer one of the questions that you asked in your original post

I think there is some misunderstanding here. In these European cities most doors are pressed open at every station, only under rare circumstances less than half of the doors are opened.

<Tangent> Sorry - I now see what you mean. I think it's down to a difference between idiomatic English in the UK and elsewhere in the world.

A lot of the time in Anglo-English 'strange' and 'unusual' are synonyms. If something is strange, then it's unusual. But (again, in the UK's dialects) the reverse isn't necessarily true: it may be unusual to see a locomotive at Southport station (where all the normal trains are worked by multiple units) but it isn't strange. It would be strange to see a Mersey ferry there - and also unusual.

So as someone whose dialect is Anglo-English, I didn't read 'it's strange that less than half of the doors are pressed open' as 'it's unusual'. Rather, I (wrongly) discounted ' strange' and ignored it.

So again, my apologies for misreading what you were telling us.

</tangent>

 

[norbitonflyer]

For many years in parts of the London commuter area the only time you would encounter sliding doors was on London Underground. It wasn't until the 1990s that trains with sliding doors were the norm rather than the exception. Quite sensibly for trains that were to be used some of the time on rural routes, British Rail did not copy the practice of London Transport.

As far as I recall, the first BR trains in London with sliding doors were the LNER-designed units built in 1949 for the Shenfield electrification. There would not be any more until the PEP prototypes in the early 1970s, from which the 313s and the like were developed.
Slam door stock existed on the Metropolitan Line until 1960.

 

[Ken H]

More to the point, why dont guards/drivers have an 'open all doors' button for use at busy stations, and (if they already do) use it? At a terminal station, the guard/driver should open the doors, let people on and off then close them, then release them so people can open them if they need them.

 

[rf_ioliver]

In nearly all European countries I have been to, I need to press a button to open the train door. In some countries the same need to be done to open the bus door as well. This practice does not exist in Asia, including Commonwealth countries, where all doors are centrally operated by the driver.

What's the point having us to press a button to open train doors? I can only see it's bad because there is an additional layer of complexity, the risk of button failure, and it significantly lengthens the dwell time at stations. I think London Underground has already abolished this practice, but what's the point of introducing it at the first place?

If all doors are centrally controlled, the dwell time at stations can be compressed to about 20 seconds as long as there are enough doors for many people to board / alight at the same time.

Finland, winter ... trust me you don't want every door on the train being opened automatically when there is no need.

In reality the added complexity is relatively minimal, as is the risk of component failure. The door opening mechanism is the "single point of failure" while the signal to open the doors may come from multiple places, eg: guard, driver, manual control etc.

 

[skyhigh]

As others have said, Mk3 coaches on HSTs had passenger opened doors with handles until they weren't allowed anymore...

Not only handles, but handles that were only on the outside of the train!!

More to the point, why dont guards/drivers have an 'open all doors' button for use at busy stations, and (if they already do) use it? At a terminal station, the guard/driver should open the doors, let people on and off then close them, then release them so people can open them if they need them.

I've wondered the same thing

 

[Domh245]

At a terminal station, the guard/driver should open the doors, let people on and off then close them, then release them so people can open them if they need them.

On most (all?) modern stock, doors will automatically close again after a short period of time - no need for closing and re-releasing

 

[choochoochoo]

More to the point, why dont guards/drivers have an 'open all doors' button for use at busy stations, and (if they already do) use it? At a terminal station, the guard/driver should open the doors, let people on and off then close them, then release them so people can open them if they need them.

Some trains have an open all doors button as well as a normal release button. - I'm thinking 387s

But as alluded to throughout the thread, there really is no need to open all the doors unless they're needed. (I'd probably use the open all doors button in an emergency only)

Why have a different policy at a terminal station ? If anything, dwell time is less of an issue normally at terminal stations, as there is usually adequate alighting/disembarking time as the driver usually has to change ends. Plenty of time for passengers to get on and off.

 

[coppercapped]

On most (all?) modern stock, doors will automatically close again after a short period of time - no need for closing and re-releasing

Quite. On the German S-Bahn networks I am most familiar with (München and Stuttgart) the doors close automatically 3 seconds after the last person has passed the infrared beams across the door opening. However they do not lock, the ring of lights around the button stays green meaning a late comer can easily re-open the door.

The doors only lock on driver command when he/she is ready to start: the lights around the buttons then turn to red. This method of working is a godsend in winter anywhere outside the tunnelled central sections and also in summer meaning not too much of the nice cooled air gets lost.

 

[SargeNpton]

As far as I recall, the first BR trains in London with sliding doors were the LNER-designed units built in 1949 for the Shenfield electrification. There would not be any more until the PEP prototypes in the early 1970s, from which the 313s and the like were developed.
Slam door stock existed on the Metropolitan Line until 1960.

Class 303 & 311 Glasgow area units from 1960/1967
Class 502 Liverpool-Southport units from 1939
Class 503 Wirral & Mersey sets from 1938/1956
Class 506 Manchester-Glossop-Hadfield units from 1954

All with sliding doors.

 

[6Gman]

507s never had passenger door controls, and had been running for a while when the 508s were eventually released from their temporary Southern region running. The 508 door controls were disabled and covered up simply to stop there being visually identical trains operating on the same network with a mix of door controls or no door controls.

The 777s will indeed only open all doors at underground platforms and terminal stations. They also auto close after 30 seconds. Will make those long waits at Bank Hall at 6am in the winter less chilly.

I thank the Hon Member for that informative response.

Makes perfect sense.

Now, about the doors on 502s and 503s . . .

 

[dm1]

Quite. On the German S-Bahn networks I am most familiar with (München and Stuttgart) the doors close automatically 3 seconds after the last person has passed the infrared beams across the door opening. However they do not lock, the ring of lights around the button stays green meaning a late comer can easily re-open the door.

The doors only lock on driver command when he/she is ready to start: the lights around the buttons then turn to red. This method of working is a godsend in winter anywhere outside the tunnelled central sections and also in summer meaning not too much of the nice cooled air gets lost.

I suspect this approach also makes dispatch slightly easier too. If the door is closed, it is likely there is nothing obstructing or stuck in it. If there is, it can be opened again in good time (although personally I've never seen that happen, the sensors are very reliable and react almost instantly if they sense any kind of obstruction).

Then when the time arrives to force close the doors before departure, the driver /guard only needs to focus on the doors that are still open, and that the platform edge is clear.

On some older rolling stock there are also different tones for doors that are closing automatically and doors that have been force closed by the driver / guard, making it easy to identify. Some stock I've used has no tone at all for the automatic closing (which makes sense, since there's nobody in the way who could get stuck) although I imagine the TSI norms probably don't allow this anymore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect this approach also makes dispatch slightly easier too. If the door is closed, it is likely there is nothing obstructing or stuck in it. If there is, it can be opened again in good time (although personally I've never seen that happen, the sensors are very reliable and react almost instantly if they sense any kind of obstruction).

Then when the time arrives to force close the doors before departure, the driver /guard only needs to focus on the doors that are still open, and that the platform edge is clear.

On some older rolling stock there are also different tones for doors that are closing automatically and doors that have been force closed by the driver / guard, making it easy to identify. Some stock I've used has no tone at all for the automatic closing (which makes sense, since there's nobody in the way who could get stuck) although I imagine the TSI norms probably don't allow this anymore.

It is part of DB's approach to DOO, yes, but it relies too much on the door edge sensors to be acceptable for the UK.

in some cases they can't force closed - I was told off by a driver on the Muenchen-Salzburg local service for blocking a door as it meant they couldn't depart and had to come back and manually close the door using a little hidden switch behind it (sort of equivalent of UK porter buttons).

 

[mark-h]

why dont guards/drivers have an 'open all doors' button for use at busy stations, and (if they already do) use it?

Edinburgh Trams have this feature.

 

[zero]

I've never been on a train where the doors open automatically without a button, I wasn't aware such things existed! I'd be panicking when coming to alight looking for the button.

I arrived in Bucharest for the first time at 2200 and took a tram to my hotel, but I couldn't work out how to open the door. Fortunately the only other passenger in the tram got off at the next stop.

 

[XAM2175]

Some stock I've used has no tone at all for the automatic closing (which makes sense, since there's nobody in the way who could get stuck) although I imagine the TSI norms probably don't allow this anymore.

I believe that the TSI-compatible procedure is for the hustle alarm to be sounded briefly only at the door that's actually closing, and then at all doors when the close-and-lock instruction is given.

It is part of DB's approach to DOO, yes, but it relies too much on the door edge sensors to be acceptable for the UK.

The newer implementations of Technikbasiertes Abfertigungsverfahren (TAV; Technology-based Clearance Procedure) additionally use a series of optical sensors to form a 'light curtain' that slow or fully inhibit door closure whenever any of the beams are broken.

Of course none of that is anywhere near as abhorrent to British sensibilities as DB's "basic" procedure - have the driver lean out of their window and look back down the train while driving out of the platform

 

[tankmc]

Why open the door when no one is getting off? In winter you let all the warm air out, in summer you let it all in.

I had similar Co-Vid concerns with the Croydon Tramlink, as whilst in the main, drivers were operating in all doors open mode, one or two drivers late at night would switch doors into release doors but passenger operated to open mode, thus increasing number of touch points to be touched by a number of customers.

Tfl Customer Services responded thus:-

29 January

Dear Mr xxxx

Thank you for your feedback form of 20 January the cleanliness and operation of the doors on our London Trams network.

First and foremost, I hope you and your other loved ones are and continue to remain safe during this time. I do also appreciate the time you've taken to get in contact with us and highlight your concerns.
At the start of this pandemic, our drivers were instructed to use the door open button rather than the door release and this instruction still applies. So I've reported this directly to a Duty Manager who has reposted the Operational Notice ensuring that all doors are opened at tram stops and terminus. They've also reminded our drivers to use only the door open facility even late at night when there are fewer customers around.

In regards to cleanliness, trams that are in operation along the network are being cleaned and sanitised every night when they reach the depot. We also carry out a deep sanitation monthly by an external professional company.

Thanks again for contacting us. If there is anything else we can help you with, please reply to this email. Alternatively, you can call us on 0343 222 1234 and we'll be happy to help you.

Kind regards

Axxxx Bxxxxx
Customer Service Adviser
Transport for London Customer Services

I just use my elbow or the back of my hand then sanitize to open the door. Sanitiser is available at nearly every station now.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It is interesting to observe, when on a 700 in the core, on the approach to each station it is announced that "the doors will open automatically at the next station" ( instead of "at this station" ) - and inevitably at most doorways someone is pressing the button even though the doors will open anyway.

Is the wording of the announcement confusing them, perhaps? Or do people just not trust that the doors will open anyway?


Meanwhile... separately... am I the only one still using my thumb to press door buttons...?

 

[Wychwood93]

It is interesting to observe, when on a 700 in the core, on the approach to each station it is announced that "the doors will open automatically at the next station" ( instead of "at this station" ) - and inevitably at most doorways someone is pressing the button even though the doors will open anyway.

Is the wording of the announcement confusing them, perhaps? Or do people just not trust that the doors will open anyway?


Meanwhile... separately... am I the only one still using my thumb to press door buttons...?

No, you are not alone! It is instinctive.

 

[Scott1]

It is interesting to observe, when on a 700 in the core, on the approach to each station it is announced that "the doors will open automatically at the next station" ( instead of "at this station" ) - and inevitably at most doorways someone is pressing the button even though the doors will open anyway.

Is the wording of the announcement confusing them, perhaps? Or do people just not trust that the doors will open anyway?

Or it could be misunderstanding, taking open to mean unlocked for you to press the button. Assuming they heard the announcement at all, headphones, day dreaming etc all mean its easily missed.

 

[Sean Emmett]

313s were designed with sliding doors - and handles! Idea being once the handle was tugged, the power door mechanism would take over.

BR said perfectly safe. But when a hack managed to open one on Welwyn viaduct during a press run it was back to the drawing board - and push buttons.

 

[AndyW33]

Or it could be misunderstanding, taking open to mean unlocked for you to press the button. Assuming they heard the announcement at all, headphones, day dreaming etc all mean its easily missed.

Or announcement fatigue when too many 'See it Say it, Sorted', 'Watch your step when alighting', endless lists of stations just merge into meaningless background noise.

 

[The exile]

313s were designed with sliding doors - and handles! Idea being once the handle was tugged, the power door mechanism would take over.

BR said perfectly safe. But when a hack managed to open one on Welwyn viaduct during a press run it was back to the drawing board - and push buttons.

This being the "norm" on many continental Metro-style units of the period.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This being the "norm" on many continental Metro-style units of the period.

A slightly different design from most of them, though. Most either opened manually and closed automatically (this was the German norm), or the handle had a switch in it. The 313s had some sort of sensor in the mechanism itself.

 

[Sean Emmett]

A slightly different design from most of them, though. Most either opened manually and closed automatically (this was the German norm), or the handle had a switch in it. The 313s had some sort of sensor in the mechanism itself.

Yes I seem to remember encountering this somewhere on my inter-rail travels in the1980s, but I can't remember where.

Re 313s, IIRC the Modern Railways article at the time said the sideways cross body movement wasn't natural, and another reason why it was dropped.

Yes I seem to remember encountering this somewhere on my inter-rail travels in the1980s, but I can't remember where.

Re 313s, IIRC the Modern Railways article at the time said the sideways cross body movement wasn't natural, and another reason why it was dropped.

Edit: Door handles on sliding doors - Paris Metro?

 

[ta-toget]

Door handles on sliding doors - Paris Metro?

Yes. I think it releases some sort of catch, and then when the driver releases the doors they open (often before the train stops moving). Sometimes it's a button, but still seems to be mechanical rather than electronic activation on some of the less modern rolling stock.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes I seem to remember encountering this somewhere on my inter-rail travels in the1980s, but I can't remember where.

Re 313s, IIRC the Modern Railways article at the time said the sideways cross body movement wasn't natural, and another reason why it was dropped.


Edit: Door handles on sliding doors - Paris Metro?

I have memories of travelling on a local train along the Cote d'Azur where the doors were open. Decent ventilation certainly!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It is interesting to observe, when on a 700 in the core, on the approach to each station it is announced that "the doors will open automatically at the next station" ( instead of "at this station" ) - and inevitably at most doorways someone is pressing the button even though the doors will open anyway.

Is the wording of the announcement confusing them, perhaps? Or do people just not trust that the doors will open anyway?

I find that announcement feels somehow unintuitive and not clear, even though I know perfectly well what it means. I found it a bit puzzling the first couple of times I heard it. Can't quite put my finger on why though.