Why do Wikipedia articles refer to UK rolling stock as "British Rail"?

[SargeNpton]

It is a little remiss that since privatisation there’s never really been a proper term to refer to U.K. rail services. The TOC names are too transient (some like GNER stuck well, others like ‘one’ came and went). I know there’s “National Rail” but that’s never quite caught on.

"GB rail services"

There has never been an overall term for UK rail services.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

"GB rail services"

There has never been an overall term for UK rail services.

Well, we have GBRf who in their original form started out as GB Railways (original holders of the Anglia franchise)...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It will get messier still if Scotland has an independent railway.
In reality, the "British Rail" class thing is about the rolling stock that runs on Network Rail's infrastructure.
I think a compromise was reached by BR/SNCF/SNCB around 1990 so that the Eurostar vehicles (class 373 and now 374) were given numbering that worked in the Eurotunnel and European systems as well as ours.
TfL and the metros, and NIR, have their own identification systems.
HS2 will not necessarily be under NR administration, so it could have its own identification system for captive stock.
But as all the initial stock will run through to NR infrastructure I'm sure it will use NR standards.

 

[Taunton]

As just about every TOC franchise out of Paddington has used close variations on Great Western, founded 1835, there is obviously some mileage in former names. The desperate desire elsewhere of each TOC changing the names of the company immediately, then 6 months later coming up with yet another new meaningless name for themselves (the lines out of Liverpool Street seem to have repeatedly suffered the most from this) is to be deprecated.

If someone can explain the advantage of changing "London Transport" to "Transport for London" I would be interested to hear it.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

We are British and we dont like change. Long may it continue.

Everyone that I know still refers to the 'Gas Board', 'Electricity Board' and 'Water Board'. I never heard anyone say that they had been to Cardiff on an Arriva Train. They just went by train.

 

[rob.rjt]

Possible also because, when things are going well, the system acts as "British Rail". You can buy a ticket at any station from any station to any other station. It is only when things go wrong in some way that people realise that it isn't one system (e.g. you get told you can't use your ticket on this train because it isn't valid on red trains, or you are delayed longer than others because your ticket can only be used on green trains, or there is no help available because this is a blue railways station and the cancelled train was run by grey trains).

 

[mmh]

In all other industries if a large undertaking changes its name, the new name is adopted and the former name consigned to the past never to be heard again. For example "Datsun" transforming into "Nissan" or "Matsu****a" transforming after 70 years into "Panasonic" or "Norwich Union" transforming into "Aviva". Not so with the railways. If you type "National Rail Class 345" into Google BOOM! Up comes an entry for the British Rail Class 345. British Rail was long gone before the Class 345 was even thought of. Seems weird to me.

The Datsun example isn't a great one, the name didn't disappear overnight by any means. For a time dealerships sold cars badged as both, and it took years for the name not to be in everyday use. If you had a Datsun under warranty you still had to take it to a Nissan / Datsun dealership for repair, they didn't issue replacement badges to owners. My first car was a Datsun (a fantastic car mechanically, but the stereotype rust bucket)

And of course some rebrands just never work with the public, for example "The Co-operative"

 

[rebmcr]

HS2 will not necessarily be under NR administration, so it could have its own identification system for captive stock.

I personally guarantee that HS2 will use UIC numbering (including the TOPS compatibility that we've already seen on some other vehicles).

 

[dk1]

Everyone that I know still refers to the 'Gas Board', 'Electricity Board' and 'Water Board'. I never heard anyone say that they had been to Cardiff on an Arriva Train. They just went by train.

I'm happy to refer to M&S own food brands as St.Michael

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'm happy to refer to M&S own food brands as St.Michael

This came up on another thread recently. Apparently the "St. Michael" brand name hasn't been used since 2000, so if you find any "St. Michael" labelled produce at the back of your food cupboard, suggest you probably shouldn't consume it.

 

[Western 52]

What about the Intercity term? Long running and still widely used and understood by the public. Some TOCs still use it I think.

 

[stj]

Even though millions own Dysons, they still get called Hoovers.

 

[dosxuk]

The British Rail Class xxx thing is, as with many things on Wikipedia, a compromise that was hard won against some very entrenched viewpoints. The main argument for it is that it simplifies finding content for non-subject-expert readers (which is by far the majority of readers on Wikipedia) ( British Rail Class xxx is actually more correctly British TOPS Class XXX, but you would only search for that if you knew what TOPS was). The other advantage is that it's basically the least-worst option, suggested alternatives were to list them by owner (so search for the ROSCO name for modern classes), the operator (so separate articles for all the HST operators or manufacturer (one article for all the various European operators of EMD Series 66 locos then). Lots of people argued for lots of different things, and eventually a consensus was found, resulting in all BR-era onwards stock being categorised as British Rail Class xxx.

Every time a new class is announced this argument comes up, these days often with a very short "stop it" from a more senior / more experienced member. Go have a poke around the talk pages of the various classes if you want to see the arguments people make.

 

[dk1]

This came up on another thread recently. Apparently the "St. Michael" brand name hasn't been used since 2000, so if you find any "St. Michael" labelled produce at the back of your food cupboard, suggest you probably shouldn't consume it.

Yeah I know but would be a great find. Never really sure why they stopped using the name. Everybody knew & respected it.

 

[Chris999999]

This came up on another thread recently. Apparently the "St. Michael" brand name hasn't been used since 2000, so if you find any "St. Michael" labelled produce at the back of your food cupboard, suggest you probably shouldn't consume it.

The same is also true if you find a British Rail sandwich, but then they were never edible even when new.

 

[bramling]

"GB rail services"

There has never been an overall term for UK rail services.

Good point.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Since the articles are headed "British Railways Class YYY", presumably the body that issues the class numbers would be appropriate.

So "Random Number Generator Class 789"

 

[yorksrob]

The same is also true if you find a British Rail sandwich, but then they were never edible even when new.

There was a rumour going around that the National Railway Museum actually has one preserved. I've never seen it there though.

 

[XAM2175]

It depends, sometimes referring to classes by their manufacturer - such as Hitachi Class 385 and Siemens Class 380 are more useful than British Rail Class 385 and British Rail Class 380 when undertaking technical discussions.

A difficulty with this approach is that it suggests that the manufacturers assign the class numbers internally as though they were model numbers - such that you could presume by extension that there might also be a Hitachi Class 380 and a Siemens Class 385.

HS2 will not necessarily be under NR administration, so it could have its own identification system for captive stock. But as all the initial stock will run through to NR infrastructure I'm sure it will use NR standards.

Unless the Interoperability Regulations are changed between now and then the individual vehicles will have to be entered onto the GB National Vehicle Register, as part of which process they'll be allocated a full UIC-format European Vehicle Number. While the TOPS unit numbering system exists outside the NVR regulations, I doubt very much that anybody will be advocating the introduction of a new system that isn't compatible with (or capable of replacing) TOPS.

 

[SargeNpton]

Well, we have GBRf who in their original form started out as GB Railways (original holders of the Anglia franchise)...

I was trying to point out the difference between GB and UK.

 

[eoff]

We are British and we dont like change. Long may it continue.

Exactly. No escape from its Home Delivery Network reputation for Yodel, No forgetting Windscale for Sellafield.

I have never eaten a Snickers bar in the UK (but have in the USA when on trips).
I miss Opal Fruits but switched to Fruit Pastels.
And if only Cadbury Creme Eggs were the same and you could buy proper bars with squared chunks at 100g sizes.

I miss British Rail, long gone are the days when they would call you a taxi home if the train was cancelled or the times when if my local service was cancelled they would switch me to the London Kings Cross service and it would make an extra stop at my local station.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The term 'ScotRail' has been in constant use since at least the 1970s, I think. Chiltern morphed out of Network SouthEast, no? Island Line probably has more challenge on ScotRail than Chiltern does.

I believe that Island Line was also a NSE creation that came in with the class 483. Before that it was known as Ryde Rider.

 

[py_megapixel]

Perhaps "UK TOPS class xxx" would be a better description.

 

[hst43102]

Perhaps "UK TOPS class xxx" would be a better description.

Even though it's compiled and edited by nerds, the vast majority of people using wikipedia would be "general" public - i.e. not knowing what TOPS is in the title? "British Rail" is a bit inaccurate, but it serves its purpose, in my opinion...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Even though it's compiled and edited by nerds, the vast majority of people using wikipedia would be "general" public - i.e. not knowing what TOPS is in the title? "British Rail" is a bit inaccurate, but it serves its purpose, in my opinion...

Yep. If it ain't broke...

They run in Britain, on Rails. That's good enough.

 

[James H]

If someone can explain the advantage of changing "London Transport" to "Transport for London" I would be interested to hear it.

Whilst I agree that London Transport is a more elegant name, I think part of the rationale for the change was to make clear that TfL was a wholly new organisation with responsibility for roads, taxis etc as well as public transport - as opposed to the old LT merely absorbing those extra functions.

 

[2HAP]

The reason is that British Rail designed the scheme under which locomotives, multiple units and ships were classified (i.e TOPS). It was decided to maintain the naming scheme post-BR for consistency. Some difficulty has been created by reusing class numbers for different classes (e.g. Class 43, Class 70), but we've found ways around this.