Why does the 357 accelerate almost 2x as fast as every other electrostar?

[southern442]

I was planning to do 0-75 but there's nowhere where a 376 can get get 0-75

They very occasionally do Sevenoaks runs, that might be a 0-75 somewhere.

 

[SolomonSouth]

They very occasionally do Sevenoaks runs, that might be a 0-75 somewhere.

Maybe but that would be inconvenient to find - they can do 0-60 Albany Park - Bexley though. Could at least get a time there.

 

[D365]

Unless you have access to manufacturer data, this exercise is only ever going to be hypothetical.

sorry to put a downer on it

 

[SolomonSouth]

Unless you have access to manufacturer data, this exercise is only ever going to be hypothetical.

sorry to put a downer on it

I know mate, it's just for fun lol. Just like RPS but we can at least get an idea.

 

[driverd]

From a cursory glance at wikipedia, it would appear the class 357s do, infact, have 400hp more to offer, for their 16 less tons, than a class 377. Unsure whether this is from a reliable source, as ever, with wiki. None the less, it does appear the units offer more hp/ton than the other electrostars.

As regards the discussion about timed runs, good luck getting any useful data. The biggest variable is the driving style and, unfortunately, unless you get every driver opening the unit up (as it were) from a stand, you're going to get totally unreliable information (sorry to be a killjoy). Its why I'm always sceptical about the timed runs - even if all other factors are even, the driving style of the human at the front will have the most significant impact on performance.

 

[bramling]

From a cursory glance at wikipedia, it would appear the class 357s do, infact, have 400hp more to offer, for their 16 less tons, than a class 377. Unsure whether this is from a reliable source, as ever, with wiki. None the less, it does appear the units offer more hp/ton than the other electrostars.

As regards the discussion about timed runs, good luck getting any useful data. The biggest variable is the driving style and, unfortunately, unless you get every driver opening the unit up (as it were) from a stand, you're going to get totally unreliable information (sorry to be a killjoy). Its why I'm always sceptical about the timed runs - even if all other factors are even, the driving style of the human at the front will have the most significant impact on performance.

The latter point is well made. I've always found it interesting to time how 317/321/365 perform on the climb from King's Cross to Potters Bar, and the single biggest determinant on a given trip in when 100 mph is reached for each class tends to be how the driver handles the Wood Green neutral section.

 

[craigybagel]

They do 100mph.

Not on the LTS line though

Having said that, do they reach these speeds on the GEML? For the short section they travel on it that is...

No 100mph on the GEML till North of Chelmsford. I believe it's 80 max for the short bit of the GEML they travel on, but even that is dependent on them being routed via the fast lines.

Gradient doesn't make much, if any, difference off the line. It is only at higher speeds where you see it significantly affect train speeds. It was dry for all of them.

If anything, gradient is even more noticeable driving a train than any other motor vehicle. Even a relatively shallow gradient makes a difference.

 

[physics34]

As a driver of 377s on DC and AC, it can often be driving technique. I for one dont often 'whack it open' as much as some others do because i want a smoother ride and no wheelslip, so i'll often go into 50% power, notch two, for a few seconds.

 

[king_walnut]

Not on the LTS line though

Quite possibly the strangest comment I've ever read on any internet forum in the last 20 years.

Class 357s do 100mph. They are physically capable.

 

[AM9]

Quite possibly the strangest comment I've ever read on any internet forum in the last 20 years.

Class 357s do 100mph. They are physically capable.

Your post is even stranger. So you do not understand that the LTS is a relatively lo speed outer suburban line where the linespeed doesn't even approach 100mph?

 

[357]

Quite possibly the strangest comment I've ever read on any internet forum in the last 20 years.

Class 357s do 100mph. They are physically capable.

I think what he means is that the maximum speed on the LTS is 75mph.

I've not driven other Electrostars but a 357 weighs 157 tonnes and has six motored axles and 10 non-powered - in the dry you can put the train straight into full power and it won't spin.

At least on c2c the 387 and 357 have performance similar enough to use the same timing calculations.

 

[SolomonSouth]

I think what he means is that the maximum speed on the LTS is 75mph.

I've not driven other Electrostars but a 357 weighs 157 tonnes and has six motored axles and 10 non-powered - in the dry you can put the train straight into full power and it won't spin.

At least on c2c the 387 and 357 have performance similar enough to use the same timing calculations.

357s seem to take off much better than dual voltage 387s, at least 0-40mph.
I suspect that the c2c schedules have plenty of extra time allowed. If they were made for a 357 being driven on the limit the 387s would probably struggle to keep up.
Although, the AC-only 387s c2c use may have more juice than dual-voltage GWR 387s - I was planning on timing one - if anyone could confirm?

As a driver of 377s on DC and AC, it can often be driving technique. I for one dont often 'whack it open' as much as some others do because i want a smoother ride and no wheelslip, so i'll often go into 50% power, notch two, for a few seconds.

Some drivers are like that. But in particular it is 465/0 drivers that whack it open and whack notch 3 braking.

The latter point is well made. I've always found it interesting to time how 317/321/365 perform on the climb from King's Cross to Potters Bar, and the single biggest determinant on a given trip in when 100 mph is reached for each class tends to be how the driver handles the Wood Green neutral section.

I've been told 365s are 0-60 in just over 50 secs, whereas 321 and 317 take about 60.
Regardless, 365s definitely had an edge

 

[ComUtoR]

Yeah. Easier said than done lmao

I was planning to do 0-75 but there's nowhere where a 376 can get get 0-75

A 376 Can hit 75 between :

Orpington and Sevenoaks
Rochester and Swanley

 

[SolomonSouth]

A 376 Can hit 75 between :

Orpington and Sevenoaks
Rochester and Swanley

Erm but I've never seen one on those routes sorry

 

[ComUtoR]

But in particular it is 465/0 drivers that whack it open and whack notch 3 braking.

Not sure where you get that from but that isn't how they are driven.

 

[357]

The c2c timetable does not have hardly any extra time at all!

And the c2c 387s are duel voltage - they are from the same batch as the GWR ones, hence how easy it has been to transfer them over to GWR during the IET fiasco.

Additionally, your "456/0" comment seems misplaced.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Not sure where you get that from but that isn't how they are driven.

The ones I've been on anyway

The c2c timetable does not have hardly any extra time at all!

And the c2c 387s are duel voltage - they are from the same batch as the GWR ones, hence how easy it has been to transfer them over to GWR during the IET fiasco.

Additionally, your "456/0" comment seems misplaced.

Sorry man forgot, the thread is about electrostars not networkers my mistake bringing that up.
And I read in an article here: https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/1...e-in-service-tendering-begins-for-new-trains/ that the ability to lower the shoes has been isolated on 387/3s. I don't know anyone who has ever seen it working on one.

BTW are you a c2c 357 driver @357?

 

[ComUtoR]

The ones I've been on anyway

It is against the driving policy to drive a them as you suggest. It just doesnt happen.

 

[357]

Photo by Stuart Hicks showing 387/3 running on DC.

The 387/3 units still have all the DC equipment, so are exactly the same weight as other 387s.

It is against the driving policy to drive a them as you suggest. It just doesnt happen.

Exactly what I was getting at.

Also, drivers are not a "357 driver" or a "456/0 driver" - you are a train driver, and you drive whatever traction your depot/roster requires you to be qualified for.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Photo by Stuart Hicks showing 387/3 running on DC.

The 387/3 units still have all the DC equipment, so are exactly the same weight as other 387s.


Exactly what I was getting at.

Also, drivers are not a "357 driver" or a "456/0 driver" - you are a train driver, and you drive whatever traction your depot/roster requires you to be qualified for.

Thanks for the photo!

It is against the driving policy to drive a them as you suggest. It just doesnt happen.

I recorded one particular driver who entered most stations at about 36mph and I recorded 42mph into Greenhithe. I'm guessing he didn't last very long doing that....

 

[357]

Thanks for the photo!

I recorded one particular driver who entered most stations at about 36mph and I recorded 42mph into Greenhithe. I'm guessing he didn't last very long doing that....

Depending on the length of the platform, those speeds are not at all excessive and would be pretty standard on my route.

 

[pdeaves]

Depending on the length of the platform, those speeds are not at all excessive and would be pretty standard on my route.

... and, that is a function of the braking characteristic, not acceleration.

 

[ComUtoR]

I recorded one particular driver who entered most stations at about 36mph and I recorded 42mph into Greenhithe. I'm guessing he didn't last very long doing that....

36mph isn't that much of an issue. A little hard for the current climate but still well within limits. 42mph is a touch excessive but as @357 correctly highlights, it is very dependent on route/traction.

Even at those speeds brake 2 is sufficient.

@pdeaves The suggestion from the OP was that 465/0 were "whacked into full power and full brake" by the Drivers

 

[pdeaves]

The suggestion from the OP was that 465/0 were "whacked into full power and full brake" by the Drivers

Sure, but the thread title is about acceleration.

Either way, the perception to the passenger may not reflect what's actually going on.

 

[bramling]

357s seem to take off much better than dual voltage 387s, at least 0-40mph.
I suspect that the c2c schedules have plenty of extra time allowed. If they were made for a 357 being driven on the limit the 387s would probably struggle to keep up.
Although, the AC-only 387s c2c use may have more juice than dual-voltage GWR 387s - I was planning on timing one - if anyone could confirm?


Some drivers are like that. But in particular it is 465/0 drivers that whack it open and whack notch 3 braking.


I've been told 365s are 0-60 in just over 50 secs, whereas 321 and 317 take about 60.
Regardless, 365s definitely had an edge

The more interesting range is what happens over about 80 mph. A 365 will continue accelerating, whereas on something like the climb to Potters Bar a 317 would simply die, sometimes even losing speed. Hence where what the driver does can make quite a big difference, if for example one driver allows speed to drop more in a neutral section than another.

For more powerful units these sorts of things make less of a difference, but they still make some impact.

 

[D365]

Photo by Stuart Hicks showing 387/3 running on DC.

The 387/3 units still have all the DC equipment, so are exactly the same weight as other 387s.

All Class 387s remain DV then?

 

[aleggatta]

All Class 387s remain DV then?

All 387s are DV and any ‘isolation’ of the DC equipment is likely to just be the two isolation cocks in the PTOSL body end cupboard to isolate the air supply that lowers the shoes at each end

 

[357]

All 387s are DV and any ‘isolation’ of the DC equipment is likely to just be the two isolation cocks in the PTOSL body end cupboard to isolate the air supply that lowers the shoes at each end

I believe it's just a change to a config file in the software

 

[aleggatta]

I believe it's just a change to a config file in the software

Honestly that seems a pointless exercise, the DC equipment still needs to be functional to be tested on exam, even though it isn’t used.
For the GatEx 387s the DC shoegear is inspected on mileage based exams with the pantograph inspected on time based exams, with this being reversed for units on GN. I would expect the same to apply to GWR and C2C units. The other thing is what is the worst that would happen if the shoes did go down? They can’t go down whilst the unit is in AC mode and it’s not possible for two coupled units to be in different traction systems, so the only place a unit would ever go with shoes down on an AC line is nowhere I.e. at a stand?

 

[SolomonSouth]

The more interesting range is what happens over about 80 mph. A 365 will continue accelerating, whereas on something like the climb to Potters Bar a 317 would simply die, sometimes even losing speed. Hence where what the driver does can make quite a big difference, if for example one driver allows speed to drop more in a neutral section than another.

For more powerful units these sorts of things make less of a difference, but they still make some impact.

Yeah, for more powerful units gradient will make less difference.
I did hear someone say 357s power to weight is better than the other electrostars, that would aid takeoff massively we can all agree