Why don't Diesel Trains have AdBlue?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by ECML125, 6 Jan 2019.

Should UK TOCs be required to have AdBlue Systems installed?

  1. Yes

    59 vote(s)
    65.6%
  2. No

    31 vote(s)
    34.4%
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  1. ECML125

    ECML125 Member

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    What it says on the tin, Why do Diesel Trains not have AdBlue? It makes sense doesn't it? Most newer buses and even newer cars have AdBlue systems, wouldn't it be viable for the railway industry to follow suit?
     
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  3. t_star2001uk

    t_star2001uk Member

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    Can AdBlue be used with Gas Oil/ Red Diesel that trains use as fuel....
     
  4. xotGD

    xotGD Established Member

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    Perhaps an explanation as to what AdBlue is?

    Sounds like the sort of pop-up you get after visiting dodgy sites on the web.
     
  5. NSEFAN

    NSEFAN Established Member

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    I would imagine that diesel engines aren't all the same. Perhaps it isn't appropriate for large diesels on trains? Is there an equivalent additive used, or perhaps trains have other systems to deal with emission control?
     
  6. ECML125

    ECML125 Member

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    Seems possible according to this website: https://www.yara.co.uk/chemical-and...dblue-for-vehicles/adblue-for-railway-trains/
    But not entirely sure what fuel there using, I'd assume the same as the UK. There is an article at the bottom which explains it's currently in use on a small amount of diesel Locomotives.

    AdBlue is injected into a modified section of the vehicle’s exhaust, where it creates a chemical reaction, removing the harmful nitrogen-oxide emissions (NOx) and converting them into harmless water and nitrogen.
     
  7. Erniescooper

    Erniescooper Member

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    I was under the impression that the MTU powerpacks in both IEP and Class 195 used Adblue
     
  8. Charlie Smythe

    Charlie Smythe On Moderation

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    We are already tight for space in new build locos and don't need anymore stuff to try and squeeze in.
     
  9. Mintona

    Mintona Established Member

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    Some of the newest ones do.
     
  10. 357

    357 Member

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    I think it's important to reduce emissions from the railway. We are already a very clean industry, but we could be better, and if that means AdBlue tanks then so be it.
     
  11. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    If diesel engines are judged to be not clean enough for future use, measures like AdBlue will be "squeezed in". The alternative might be no new diesel engined stock and limping on with grandfathered existing vehicles.
     
  12. ECML125

    ECML125 Member

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    I'd have to disagree with you on that one. IF the Railway is a clean industry, why are lights and other electricity burning appliances left on at stations when they are closed?

    Here is an thread about Energy Efficiency:
    https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/energy-efficiency-on-the-railways-is-there-a-plan.175786/
     
  13. 100andthirty

    100andthirty Member

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    You can be confident that the class 800 and derivatives have engines using AdBlue and I have seen the AdBlue tanks on class 769 Flex. The reason you have not seen them on trains before relates to the long gap between the last orders for diesel trains and those just going into service around now
     
  14. DanDaDriver

    DanDaDriver Member

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    Red diesel is just standard diesel that has been dyed for tax purposes.
     
  15. superkev

    superkev Established Member

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    Im not sure if any dmus currently in passenger services have any pollution reducing measures at all like EGR (exhaust gas recirc) or SCR (adblue which is similar to pigs urine).
    Unlike roads no one seems to mind old pollluting diesels on railways. Didnt I read on here somewhere a while back that someone had done some measurements and both Man Vic and Birmingham new steet occasionally exceeded safe levels.
    K
     
  16. Charlie Smythe

    Charlie Smythe On Moderation

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    I would imagine the very latest DMU's such as Class 800/802' as well as the Tri mode 769's. I don't think it will be retrofitted to any stock.
     
  17. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    No selective catalytic reduction equipment in most cases and no space to put it. On very large diesel engines (locomotives rather than DMUs) there are also alternatives for NOx reduction that don't need SCR if you look to the US for example freight locomotives can meet the Tier 4 emission regs (stricter than Euro IIIB or V especially for NOx) without using SCR.
    SCR is not as effective as certain German road vehicle manufacturers would have had you believe.
     
  18. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Only after 1/1/2012 when the rail diesel standard changed to match the road diesel one, before it could be lower quality than road.
     
  19. fgwrich

    fgwrich Established Member

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    Indeed you can notice the difference by the smell left by them. AdBlue is created from a chemical compounds similar to Urea and De-ironised water and can leave a certain smell behind when the engines have been started up (most noticeable after a period of standing for a while!). Stand at a station like Reading for a while and you'll be able to tell the difference from smell alone when a 220 has been through vs a 800 - as odd as that sounds! It does however mean that the exhaust emissions are a lot cleaner, which is not just good for the environment, but leaves behind a lot less soot / clag like certain fleets like the Voyagers do.
     
  20. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    They do. MTU just call Ad-Blue Urea which is what it is
     
  21. DanDaDriver

    DanDaDriver Member

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    Quite, but that was seven years ago.
     
  22. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    AdBlue is a Urea solution that is injected just before a special catalytic converter in the exhaust system. The heat converts Urea to Ammonia and CO2, the ammonia then reacts with NOx components on the catalyst surface to form N2 and H20.
     
  23. pdeaves

    pdeaves Established Member

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    Allerton and Sheffield depots have AdBlue facilities. No doubt others do, too.
     
  24. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    Can you retrofit Adblue systems onto older engines? I have always presumed not but have no basis for that presumption other than not recalling seeing any examples.
     
  25. a_c_skinner

    a_c_skinner Established Member

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    Asking about this for a road vehicle the answer seems not.
     
  26. Emblematic

    Emblematic Member

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    Yes, the rather sizeable programme to upgrade the London bus fleet to EU Vi by 2020 incorporates this upgrade. As the cost per vehicle is around £17,000, you are only seeing it is where there are particular requirements to make recent vehicles compliant with the very latest regs, in most cases (such as the railways) there's no commercial driver for this type of expenditure.
     
  27. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    Really interesting, thanks. That seems like a pretty punchy price tag as a proportion of the total cost of a new bus.

    This discussion has prompted a further question. I wonder if trains are caught by the new ultra-low emission zone in London. Obviously there is not a lot of diesel traffic on the rails but there is a bit. I wonder if a city like Leeds has the power to introduce a similar zone that definitely does include trains. That would throw the cat amongst the pigeons!
     
  28. Emblematic

    Emblematic Member

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    Ballpark figure for a new bus meeting TfL specs is around £275k (I think hybrid is mandatory for anything new, and for the central area now.) Boris buses were around £350k a piece, and are unsellable outside London (which is why they are all TfL owned, whereas everything else is operator owned or leased.) So for vehicles only a few years old, and the EU IV and EU V borises, it's the right choice. LGV and coach operators coming within the M25 will also be hit by the tightened LEZ mandating EU VI, so they may also be in the market for upgrades on newer or specialist vehicles (mobile cranes and the like.)
    The LEZ and ULEZ zones are strictly for road vehicles, no legislation for anything else envisioned. So trains, canal boats, stationary generators and the like are all safe, at least for the foreseeable future, although new purchases of all these have to meet current regs. In terms of NOx emissions, the household gas boiler would be the next target after road vehicles.
     
  29. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    Very much agreed! I am in the middle of writing up a large piece of work on the very subject of urban heating and cooling! I don't think people really appreciate how much NOx originates from gas boilers.

    A tangent, but am I personally quite sad about the Boris bus thing. Whilst the sponsor might be a disgrace, I really like the product. I use both the Boris bus and the normal buses daily. The new Routemaster feels like it is much better made with a better layout and also feels to have much shorter dwell times with 3 doors and 2 staircases. I would have thought they could be kept on the road for more years than the other types because of the quality, meaning that the higher initial cost balances out. That said, I have no idea how running costs compare. I lived for many years in bus dependent Leeds and always felt a fleet could be very well used there. I also don't like the cult of personality around them. Boris didn't design them, skilled designers and engineers did.

    The two design errors seem to have been the cooling (I have no idea how they got that so wrong) and the hybrid engines.

    Which leads to another point. Having a particular engine is all well and good in a low emission zone. How do the authorities realistically check it is functioning as it should? I have a sneaking suspicion that most hybrid buses in London are not performing on the electric part as they should. With AdBlue, whst happens if it is not replaced regularly, does it not slip back in emissions terms? Does TfL audit hybrid and AdBlue performance?

    Sorry moderators, I realise there a few off-topic comments there!
     
  30. Northhighland

    Northhighland Member

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    Most engines have an interlock in the software that won’t allow the engine to start without ad blue.

    Retrospective fitting of ad blu systens is less effective as I understand as engines are designed to work with it. Something around temperatures.
     
  31. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    some do, some don't. I suspect newer trains will have this stuff fitted as standard. The older ones wont until they are re engined.

    Is Ad-Ble a trademark? Are other systems ( with other names) also available?
     
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