Why don't Diesel Trains have AdBlue?

[hwl]

As @AM9 has said, no worse then BBQ restaurants and other takeaways.

It all adds up though. The latest estimates on PM origin indicated about 35% in UK large Urban areas are due to wood burners including pizza ovens. Wood burners are coming into Defra and local authority crosshairs in big way. There was very good reason the Government shoved a lot of the responsibility for air quality at local authorities recently, namely they haven't been enforcing the clean air act (1956).

 

[Bletchleyite]

namely they haven't been enforcing the clean air act (1956).

That is true. The wood burner near me is almost certainly in contravention of the Clean Air Zone that I know to be in force (as it was flagged up by the searches when I bought the house). However, nobody seems to bother enforcing it.

 

[hwl]

Quite.

The Government already plans some quite strong restrictions on them. If those are inadequate, we will need to ban them in urban areas. That would be sad, but it would be preferable to the return of the smog and serious health problems, as well as ugly, black, smoke-stained buildings like they were until as recent as the 1990s.

4 of them will stink more than four of your typical old terraced house in the 50s which normally had only one coal (rather than wood) fire in the lounge and you simply wore clothes elsewhere in the home.

If you live on a farm, fine, but there is really no place for these used on a daily basis in any town or city, and even less place for several of them. If you must burn wood (and it is a renewable resource), fit a proper biomass boiler with a scrubber.

And use dry wood too...

 

[Bletchleyite]

And use dry wood too...

Indeed. That is the basis of forthcoming legislation - to ban the sale of wet wood as firewood.

 

[hwl]

That is true. The wood burner near me is almost certainly in contravention of the Clean Air Zone that I know to be in force (as it was flagged up by the searches when I bought the house). However, nobody seems to bother enforcing it.

The size of enforcement department needed will make local authority finance departments worry. (and so will the fines!)

The newest Google Maps camera car (launched last week) in a joint venture with TfL now also takes air quality measurements as well as streetview photos. The London Boroughs should be a bit worried as TfL will have also have torrents of data from their world leading data collection exercise coming soon, only 4 or so know what is going to hit them.

 

[AM9]

Two wrongs do not make a right. And most people do not live near a BBQ restaurant, so they aren't being choked as they sleep.

Had I read that daft post, I would have replied similarly. Some seem to be under the impression that logs which have grown in their lifetime can be turned back into C02 and particulates at their convenience. Like so many things that the new wave of polluters think as OK because it is 'natural', but context is everything. Wood burners are fine in cottages on remote hills where the logs can be obtained without any road transport involved, and the column of smoke rising from the chimney serves only to remind a dwelling on the next hill that their neighbour is at home. When they are in towns or even cities, the heavy local pollutants not only provide a direct health threat, but can also trigger dangerous smog which can kill many innocent inhabitants, - as it did until the late '50s when the government cleaned its act up. I imagine that wood burners will be subject to increasing restrictions in the near future.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Two wrongs do not make a right. And most people do not live near a BBQ restaurant, so they aren't being choked as they sleep.

They are not being choked at all. I do not wish to continue this convocation for two reasons. Number one being that it is of top and has nothing to do with Adblue, and number two being that we will never agree on this. You think they are bad where as I think they are brilliant.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Quite.

The Government already plans some quite strong restrictions on them. If those are inadequate, we will need to ban them in urban areas. That would be sad, but it would be preferable to the return of the smog and serious health problems, as well as ugly, black, smoke-stained buildings like they were until as recent as the 1990s.

4 of them will stink more than four of your typical old terraced house in the 50s which normally had only one coal (rather than wood) fire in the lounge and you simply wore clothes elsewhere in the home.

If you live on a farm, fine, but there is really no place for these used on a daily basis in any town or city, and even less place for several of them. If you must burn wood (and it is a renewable resource), fit a proper biomass boiler with a scrubber.

They don't stink and we have never had any complaints from any of our neighbours, but as I have said in my reply to @Bletchleyite it is basically pointless continuing this convocation seeing as it is off topic.

 

[theageofthetra]

They are not being choked at all. I do not wish to continue this convocation for two reasons. Number one being that it is of top and has nothing to do with Adblue, and number two being that we will never agree on this. You think they are bad where as I think they are brilliant.

The only reason they are seen as in an issue is that for many the fuel is free and can't be taxed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only reason they are seen as in an issue is that for many the fuel is free and can't be taxed.

That is not the only reason at all - though I'm sure it's a reason.

 

[DanDaDriver]

Meanwhile, while we’re fretting about barbecue restaurants and wood burners, China is building 259GW worth of new coal power stations. Slightly more than the entire US coal power fleet......

(And yes, I am aware that locally the above mentioned things can make a difference.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Meanwhile, while we’re fretting about barbecue restaurants and wood burners, China is building 259GW worth of new coal power stations. Slightly more than the entire US coal power fleet......

(And yes, I am aware that locally the above mentioned things can make a difference.)

Chinese coal power stations may be an issue from a carbon perspective, but a coal-fired power station in China does not cause smog in London, whereas too many wood-burners would.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Meanwhile, while we’re fretting about barbecue restaurants and wood burners, China is building 259GW worth of new coal power stations. Slightly more than the entire US coal power fleet......

(And yes, I am aware that locally the above mentioned things can make a difference.)

And I get ripped apart for my 4 log burners...

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I get ripped apart for my 4 log burners...

You're missing the point entirely, see my previous reply.

Pollution at the point of use (smell and particulates) differs from the carbon emissions issue. Both are an issue, but one not being properly addressed is not a reason not to address the other.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

You're missing the point entirely, see my previous reply.

Pollution at the point of use (smell and particulates) differs from the carbon emissions issue. Both are an issue, but one not being properly addressed is not a reason not to address the other.

I live hundreds of miles from London so smog there really doesn't bother me. If everyone's worried about global warming then we need to address China way more urgently then people who like log burners and BBQ's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I live hundreds of miles from London so smog there really doesn't bother me. If everyone's worried about global warming then we need to address China way more urgently then people who like log burners and BBQ's.

Once again, we are not only worried about global warming. There are two main pollution issues. "Global warming" i.e. CO2 which is on a macro scale, and particulates which are on a per town/city scale. Just because one is harder to address is not a reason not to address the other. Particulates can cause smog and accentuate breathing issues such as asthma. They may even cause them, that isn't quite known.

Really, long term, there can't be any place for burning fuels causing particulate emissions in built up areas, whether they be burned in a car or in a house. The one thing I'd exempt is very occasional use like home barbecues or chimneas which people tend to use no more than once or twice a year, but even then it's best to use dry fuel.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Once again, we are not only worried about global warming. There are two main pollution issues. "Global warming" i.e. CO2 which is on a macro scale, and particulates which are on a per town/city scale. Just because one is harder to address is not a reason not to address the other. Particulates can cause smog and accentuate breathing issues such as asthma. They may even cause them, that isn't quite known.

Really, long term, there can't be any place for burning fuels causing particulate emissions in built up areas, whether they be burned in a car or in a house. The one thing I'd exempt is very occasional use like home barbecues or chimneas which people tend to use no more than once or twice a year, but even then it's best to use dry fuel.

What a depressing time to live that will be when everything is clean and green. Wish i was around during the steam days or even when 37's ran the show. Still, we do still have a few years left of being able to have 60ft bonfires that takes weeks to burn out. Unfortunately though, those days could soon come to an end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a depressing time to live that will be when everything is clean and green.

I think we are fundamentally not going to agree here.

 

[AM9]

What a depressing time to live that will be when everything is clean and green. Wish i was around during the steam days or even when 37's ran the show. Still, we do still have a few years left of being able to have 60ft bonfires that takes weeks to burn out. Unfortunately though, those days could soon come to an end.

I presume the you (like me) are lucky enough to not suffer from asthma or other respiratory diseases. In the '50s, deaths due to pollution in London went over 12,000 in one winter. The government acted in 1956 with the Clean Air Act. The results were remarkable, laying down a path for future legislation, so expect this latest fad to be stamped on soon. No doubt there will be those who complain that their 'right' to create pollution should override the health of others, - mmmm, nice people.

 

[anamyd]

I presume the you (like me) are lucky enough to not suffer from asthma or other respiratory diseases. In the '50s, deaths due to pollution in London went over 12,000 in one winter. The government acted in 1956 with the Clean Air Act. The results were remarkable, laying down a path for future legislation, so expect this latest fad to be stamped on soon. No doubt there will be those who complain that their 'right' to create pollution should override the health of others, - mmmm, nice people.

Charlie's about to buy his 5th log burner. Maybe he should fit them all with SCR so their emissions will be treated with AdBlue...?

 

[tomuk]

I live hundreds of miles from London so smog there really doesn't bother me.

I hope you don't live in the linked area as you are potentiaaly breaking the law if you have a wood burner.

https://exetercc.maps.arcgis.com/ap...legend=false&disable_scroll=false&theme=light

 

[Chris125]

What a depressing time to live that will be when everything is clean and green.

Pretty sure that's the first time I've ever seen someone bemoan the idea of clean air...

 

[GusB]

Charlie's about to buy his 5th log burner. Maybe he should fit them all with SCR so their emissions will be treated with AdBlue...?

...which would bring the thread back on topic at least
I read somewhere that a coach dealer was offering an upgrade package to bring Volvo B9R coaches up to Euro 6 standard (from Euro 5), so clearly it's possible to upgrade older engines to more modern standards. I realise that the engines in 2nd-generation DMUs are rather older than the Euro 5 era, though (I'm not sure what the equivalent rail standard is), so ideally we'd be looking at new engines. Would it be cost-effective to replace the likes of the NT855 with a slightly more modern version at this stage, considering that some of the 15x units will have to soldier on for some years?

 

[anamyd]

...which would bring the thread back on topic at least
I read somewhere that a coach dealer was offering an upgrade package to bring Volvo B9R coaches up to Euro 6 standard (from Euro 5), so clearly it's possible to upgrade older engines to more modern standards. I realise that the engines in 2nd-generation DMUs are rather older than the Euro 5 era, though (I'm not sure what the equivalent rail standard is), so ideally we'd be looking at new engines. Would it be cost-effective to replace the likes of the NT855 with a slightly more modern version at this stage, considering that some of the 15x units will have to soldier on for some years?

Is there even such an engine in existence...? if 15x get new engines I can only see them getting 13 litre MTUs (with SCR / AdBlue!) (running detune ECU maps in the case of 150s). There are talks of a hybrid version of those being fitted to Turbostars, then Network Turbos then the Sprinter family.

 

[modernrail]

To stay off topic for a moment I literally cancelled my order for a log burner for my flat in London when I saw the stats on the problems they cause. As with shipping, I was amazed that we are so poorly educated on their effects. You don't need one in a city and so let's at least have the facts. If people want one and they are burning legally and they don't give a toss about the health effects on those around them, that is absolutely their choice. Just make it an educated choice at least.

The other reason I cancelled the order was as an offset against my travel on old stinky northern DMU's. As it happens Northern arranged the offset by not running the services in the first place and so I needn't have bothered.

 

[theageofthetra]

Yes and having been to the oarts6of

And I get ripped apart for my 4 log burners...

Having been to the parts of China where they burn and mine this sulphur laden low calorific crap and the average life expectancy is 60. Whether we drive a Prius or virtue signal about wood burners is frankly embarrassing.

 

[Mikey C]

Is there even such an engine in existence...? if 15x get new engines I can only see them getting 13 litre MTUs (with SCR / AdBlue!) (running detune ECU maps in the case of 150s). There are talks of a hybrid version of those being fitted to Turbostars, then Network Turbos then the Sprinter family.

I imagine that refitting older stock would be quite difficult, as the new units with all their gubbins are presumably very different in size and shape? It doesn't seem to have been mentioned as an option, maybe it's easier to convert EMUs that it is to reengine older DMUs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine that refitting older stock would be quite difficult, as the new units with all their gubbins are presumably very different in size and shape? It doesn't seem to have been mentioned as an option, maybe it's easier to convert EMUs that it is to reengine older DMUs?

Ignoring Class 230s which are a bit of a niche case, part of the benefit of converting old EMUs is that what you get is not a straight DMU but a bi-mode - far more useful. Because they've spent their lives as EMUs, they also haven't spent the last 30 years shaking themselves to bits.

 

[Emblematic]

Seems that Porterbrook have been granted funding to trial some retrofit emissions reduction. They doesn't state whether it's going to use SCR, although that would seem most likely.
https://twitter.com/PB_Leasing/status/1090968698255478784

Porterbrook goes green! Our First Of A Kind exhaust after treatment project with @EminoxLtd and @SW_Railway has been granted funding by @innovateuk @transportgovuk

 

[anamyd]

Seems that Porterbrook have been granted funding to trial some retrofit emissions reduction. They doesn't state whether it's going to use SCR, although that would seem most likely.
https://twitter.com/PB_Leasing/status/1090968698255478784

Ahh Eminox, cool! Eminox made the original 158/159 exhausts and it's about time for those units to get SCR fitted; they have that distinctive smell of older diesel engines and you can actually smell the smelly and unhealthy particles that are entering your lungs...