Why don't people carry cash?

[Fare-Cop]

I do think that if TOCs do not wish to employ conductors or station staff, anywhere on a line, then it is inevitable that the takings will be rather lean. Gating at least the major stations would make a massive difference to fare evasion rates.

I accept that individually you may not intending to avoid a fare and understand your reasoning, but that is not the case in many instances.

Unfortunately, gating all major stations in not the answer either. All an automatic gate ever does in reality is that it protects the minimum fare as far as the next station stop only.

 

[Flamingo]

This is very true. I would however put the blame on the TOC for not installing more modern equipment.

Is there an alternative out there that can get a signal in the Severn Tunnel?

We don't run the phone company, just the trains.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is there an alternative out there that can get a signal in the Severn Tunnel?

We don't run the phone company, just the trains.

It could probably be installed; after all mobile phones now work throughout the Paris Metro and RER systems - including all the tunnel sections.

The question will be: Who pays?

 

[paddington]

sorry I was thrown off by tsr's "as above"

I do wonder what would happen if a 5 "New Pence" coin was inserted into a PERTIS - would it be confused for a 10p?

Well, the old 5p is exactly the same size and weight as an Australian 10c (by design - both descended from the shilling), and works in Sydney trains (Cityrail) ticket machines. I got one in my change, and put it back in the next time I bought a ticket!

I also received several 1p coins in my change masquerading as 0.05 EUR when buying tickets from Deutsche Bahn machines, which is surprising as they are not very similar - but my loss was recouped when I encountered a jammed machine which refunded me EUR 20 of coins upon insertion of a 5 euro note!

 

[bunnahabhain]

Somebody with a higher concern for consumer rights than you.

Any railway experience? Retail or revenue experience? Transport experience?

 

[Tibbs]

Is there an alternative out there that can get a signal in the Severn Tunnel?

We don't run the phone company, just the trains.

You could use same system they run on the deep line stations on the underground to get WiFi.

You don't really need phones, you just need a wireless data network. Does the Severn Tunnel have long straight sections? If so, directional antennae would mean you wouldn't even need many base station repeaters.

 

[WelshBluebird]

With regards to swiping cards rather than using the chip, ATW seem to do this an awful lot on the valley lines services. Not sure why.

 

[island]

IME they often don't have the PIN entry device.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The interesting point to me is the concept of putting as little as possible into the Permit to Travel machine, which I would interpret as not wanting to pay the fare due, but not wanting to be accused of trying to evade the fare. I believe that the instructions are that you should put in as much as is necessary to pay the fare or as can be accepted by the PTT machine, rather than as little as possible as most people choose.

If I have a good amount of change in my pocket, say £5, why should I have to put it all into the permit machine to avoid being regarded as a criminal - what do I then say to the bus driver when I get off at my destination - sorry mate, only got a £20 note, the permit machine had all my change?

Is the Revenue Officer going to frisk me (or put the gloves on) to see if I have any additional change secreted about my person?

Where is the line between minimum and acceptable?

At my local station, where there is only a permit machine, there is no indication of what fares are to any destination served directly or by connection. How much should I put in then?

 

[Anvil1984]

In my experience, guards take the PERTIS, issue the full ticket and give me back my 5p when I pay using my card.

If I were to tender a card that was supposed to be accepted (Visa Debit) but because I was unaware that it was one of these "Always Authorise" cards and it didn't work in the ticket machine, I assume that I'd be given the cance to pay my fare, with my card, on arrival/interchange at a station with appropriate facilities...?

Nope you would probably on the first occasion be given an Unpaid fares Notice and be warned to use a different card / cash in future. Then possibly reported if you get the same conductor and the same scenario presents itself. You may even be asked to leave the train short of your destination to purchase a ticket especially if you've boarded the train at a station which had purchasing facilities

 

[Chouette]

With regards to swiping cards rather than using the chip, ATW seem to do this an awful lot on the valley lines services. Not sure why.

I was recently asked on a valley line service if my Chip and Pin card worked, or would it need to be swiped. I said it was fine, and the guard seemed rather surprised when it did indeed work. It seemed she was expecting to have to swipe it after all.

 

[DeeGee]

Nope you would probably on the first occasion be given an Unpaid fares Notice and be warned to use a different card / cash in future. Then possibly reported if you get the same conductor and the same scenario presents itself. You may even be asked to leave the train short of your destination to purchase a ticket especially if you've boarded the train at a station which had purchasing facilities

Specifically thinking of stations on the Medway Valley Line which are Penalty Fares stations but have no means of buying tickets other than a single PERTIS, until arriving at Strood (when sometimes, I'd suggest, there isn't time to exit the barriers and queue up to buy a ticket).

So a UFN is like a bill, then? Are there administrative costs to be added on? Is it punitive?

The presumtion above being that any attempt to pay with an online-only card on-board a train is attempted fare evasion, I assume?

 

[D6975]

You could use same system they run on the deep line stations on the underground to get WiFi.

You don't really need phones, you just need a wireless data network. Does the Severn Tunnel have long straight sections? If so, directional antennae would mean you wouldn't even need many base station repeaters.

The Severn Tunnel, from the west end has:
long straight, descending
short straight, flat
long straight ascending
short section with a right turn, ascending, straightening out before the portal.

The bulk of the tunnel could therefore be covered by two antennae, one at each end of the straight section.

 

[Anvil1984]

Specifically thinking of stations on the Medway Valley Line which are Penalty Fares stations but have no means of buying tickets other than a single PERTIS, until arriving at Strood (when sometimes, I'd suggest, there isn't time to exit the barriers and queue up to buy a ticket).

So a UFN is like a bill, then? Are there administrative costs to be added on? Is it punitive?

The presumtion above being that any attempt to pay with an online-only card on-board a train is attempted fare evasion, I assume?

A UFN doesn't have any admin fees unless it is not paid within a certain amount of time it is for the fare which would have been charged. If it happens more than once then it can be construed as potential fare evasion especially when the passenger is alighting at a station without barriers as a fair number will just walk out of the station and just buy a single at the booking office on the way back

 

[PermitToTravel]

A UFN doesn't have any admin fees unless it is not paid within a certain amount of time it is for the fare which would have been charged. If it happens more than once then it can be construed as potential fare evasion especially when the passenger is alighting at a station without barriers as a fair number will just walk out of the station and just buy a single at the booking office on the way back

They solved this in my area by ensuring that singles are priced the same as returns

 

[Flamingo]

So a UFN is like a bill, then? Are there administrative costs to be added on?

An Unpaid Fare Notice is issued at the discretion of the Guard/ATE/RPI, it is not an automatic right. It is issued for the full, undiscounted, Anytime fare (which may be seen by some as punitive), no railcard discounts apply. It is only issued to the next manned station (where the passenger should alight and do a SILK process) unless exceptional circumstances. They can not be issued across company boundaries, so if I issue an FGW UFN, the passenger can't continue their journey on XC or ATW. If not paid or appealed within 10 days, then admin charges (at least £15) start to be added. Eventually, they are taken to court if not paid.

 

[bunnahabhain]

An Unpaid Fare Notice is issued at the discretion of the Guard/ATE/RPI, it is not an automatic right. It is issued for the full, undiscounted, Anytime fare (which may be seen by some as punitive), no railcard discounts apply. It is only issued to the next manned station (where the passenger should alight and do a SILK process) unless exceptional circumstances. They can not be issued across company boundaries, so if I issue an FGW UFN, the passenger can't continue their journey on XC or ATW. If not paid or appealed within 10 days, then admin charges (at least £15) start to be added. Eventually, they are taken to court if not paid.

Its also only valid for a single ticket. We will check your name, and your address, and if it doesn't match then it automatically becomes a case of fare evasion and BTP will be requested. There are some exceptions to this but I won't go into them on here.

 

[island]

Northern issues UPFNs for return journeys now.

 

[fowler9]

I'll tell you why I carry cash as of tonight. My Nat West online account said I had a balance of £19:92 and cleared funds of £6:92. Barclays around the corner said I had a balance of £29:92 but could withdraw nothing. The shop round the corner wouldn't let me spend a fiver. I had cash on me. Until the banks manage to keep up with the real world I'll carry on using cash and my brain.

 

[DonnyDeltic]

Return Journey UFN's are only issued for Declined Cards where the entire return journey is within a Northern route - and only at the Conductors discretion if the situation seems genuine.

Every day I encounter:-
'Card Declined'
'no cash' (and we are talking just a few £'s in these cases)
'boarded at a manned staion'
'in a rush'
'the Conductor usually swipes my card'
'I'll pay at the other end'

I always explain why a card is declined (offline device, bank puts limits on card etc) and inform passenger not to use that particular card on trains. This is while they complete an UFN or I complete a TIR.

 

[fowler9]

Return Journey UFN's are only issued for Declined Cards where the entire return journey is within a Northern route - and only at the Conductors discretion if the situation seems genuine.

Every day I encounter:-
'Card Declined'
'no cash' (and we are talking just a few £'s in these cases)
'boarded at a manned staion'
'in a rush'
'the Conductor usually swipes my card'
'I'll pay at the other end'

I always explain why a card is declined (offline device, bank puts limits on card etc) and inform passenger not to use that particular card on trains. This is while they complete an UFN or I complete a TIR.

Well there is why I never rely on being able to use a card. All capped off by a conductor who assumes you are on the make. Fortunately I am old enough and ugly enough (And well known enough by the staff on my local route) to not get in trouble.

 

[bb21]

You are not being accused of anything by the action of a UFN or a TIR being filled in. The UFN is simply a bill which allows you to pay for your travel afterwards, and a TIR is just a document submitted for further investigation of the matter, and could be for all sorts of things, including ticket office errors.

 

[fowler9]

You are not being accused of anything by the action of a UFN or a TIR being filled in. The UFN is simply a bill which allows you to pay for your travel afterwards, and a TIR is just a document submitted for further investigation of the matter, and could be for all sorts of things, including ticket office errors.

Apologies for my ignorance but what does TIR stand for? Not that it has ever happened to me but I would probably feel I was being accused of something unless the conductor said he was "Sticking it on the tab!" Just to clarify that has never happened either.

 

[bb21]

TIR is Ticket Irregularity Report. There is a brief explanation in our Fares & Ticketing Guide Section 10.3.

 

[fowler9]

TIR is Ticket Irregularity Report. There is a brief explanation in our Fares & Ticketing Guide Section 10.3.

Many thanks mate. I doubt it is something I will come across in my day to day life but when I googled it I got loads of info about HGV's! Ha ha. Thanks again.

 

[WelshBluebird]

You are not being accused of anything by the action of a UFN.

Maybe not technically, but in reality it is hard to suggest otherwise considering how restrictive UFN's are.

Ignoring the technicalities, being a given an UFN because your card didn't work is pretty much a punishment as you will likely have to pay more and will likely have to disrupt your journey to sort out a further ticket.

It is kind of like when people say penalty fares are not fines. Technically that is correct, but in reality they pretty much are (indeed at least one ToC uses the word fine when talking about penalty fares, although they are careful not to directly call them fines).

Again, ignore the technicalities here. I am talking about what it effectively seems like to the passenger. After all, if it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, then ...

 

[island]

Ignoring the technicalities, being a given an UFN because your card didn't work is pretty much a punishment as you will likely have to pay more and will likely have to disrupt your journey to sort out a further ticket.

You do not have to pay more to settle a UPFN, assuming you do so within 10 days of issue.

[Cue the pedants who say you have to pay for a stamp to post the cheque, or for the phone call to pay by debit card, or etc., to which I say phooey, you can arrange to pay them at a ticket office in cash if you're really that bothered and don't have free calls to landlines, and no you don't have to ring that 0844 number, there's an 01 number available on saynoto0870.com.]

 

[Deerfold]

You do not have to pay more to settle a UPFN, assuming you do so within 10 days of issue.

[Cue the pedants who say you have to pay for a stamp to post the cheque, or for the phone call to pay by debit card, or etc., to which I say phooey, you can arrange to pay them at a ticket office in cash if you're really that bothered and don't have free calls to landlines, and no you don't have to ring that 0844 number, there's an 01 number available on saynoto0870.com.]

I think the point was that most TOCs will only issue them as singles so you can't benefit where return prices that are significantly less than 2 singles.

 

[WelshBluebird]

You do not have to pay more to settle a UPFN, assuming you do so within 10 days of issue.

That ignores that fact it would be for the undiscounted anytime fare, and not any potential off peak or railcard discounted fare. Added to the fact that (ignoring a couple of exceptions) they are just for singles (so you wouldn't get the saving a a return fare gives compared to two singles) and considering Flamingo's comments about it only being to the next manned station, it certainly does seem like a punishment, regardless of what it technically is.

 

[Haywain]

That ignores that fact it would be for the undiscounted anytime fare, and not any potential off peak or railcard discounted fare. Added to the fact that (ignoring a couple of exceptions) they are just for singles (so you wouldn't get the saving a a return fare gives compared to two singles) and considering Flamingo's comments about it only being to the next manned station, it certainly does seem like a punishment, regardless of what it technically is.

But many (most?) TOCs state that they will only sell full price undiscounted tickets on their trains where there was an opportunity to buy before boarding. It would therefore follow that the UFN would be for the same fare.