Why have TPE extended some trains beyond Newcastle to Edinburgh?

Killingworth

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XC through Leeds is massively overcrowded for most of the day. They want to go to 2 per hour as far as I know but DfT insisted on one train continuing to serve Doncaster. I would say that they would welcome the TPE Leeds-Edinburgh train which takes pressure of them on a key market through one of the North's busiest stations
There is a very big XC turnover at Leeds, not least because anyone travelling to/from north of York to/from anywhere other than Leeds and Wakefield will go via Doncaster for the quicker journey. Occasional travellers may not realise that and just book the first train!
 
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Iskra

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There is a very big XC turnover at Leeds, not least because anyone travelling to/from north of York to/from anywhere other than Leeds and Wakefield will go via Doncaster for the quicker journey. Occasional travellers may not realise that and just book the first train!
Or they might accept the time penalty in preference of a direct train if travelling from North of Newcastle to South West of Birmingham. A lot stay on at Leeds, as well as the Leeds traffic, which is why it is such a busy service.
 

47271

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Quick question on this, I know it's been covered on other threads but I can't find it now, sorry.

I was walking by at Waverley yesterday as the 10am ish to Liverpool pulled away on diesel.

Is TPE running on diesel north of Newcastle because there's not enough oomph in the supply at the moment, or do they change over somewhere else? I left later on an Azuma that was happily on electric.
 

notlob.divad

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Quick question on this, I know it's been covered on other threads but I can't find it now, sorry.

I was walking by at Waverley yesterday as the 10am ish to Liverpool pulled away on diesel.

Is TPE running on diesel north of Newcastle because there's not enough oomph in the supply at the moment, or do they change over somewhere else? I left later on an Azuma that was happily on electric.
It is to do with the power supply. There is supposed to be an upgrade in the pipeline. More details available in the lner-azuma-class-800-801 thread from this post onwards.[URL="https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-azuma-class-800-801.170436/page-64#post-4113609"]LNER Azuma (Class 800/801)[/URL]
The changeover is aparently around the Chathill neutral section.
 

route101

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Someone on twitter started a rumour that XC were to pull out of Glasgow and Aberdeen and TPE were to replace on Liverpool services!
 

Iskra

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Someone on twitter started a rumour that XC were to pull out of Glasgow and Aberdeen and TPE were to replace on Liverpool services!
TPE do seem to be to be progressively encroaching on the XC domain. Might not be a bad thing if it can allow the XC Reading-Newcastle services to turnaround at York to release voyagers for strengthening.
 

Taunton

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I do question why TP needed to extend to Edinburgh other than as a rather massive ORCATS raid.
It's actually a DfT-imposed Orcats Raid, which is a variation on a theme. When the end-2015 franchise award was announced, Virgin had beforehand been given the ECML franchise, after the well-known argument and making the DfT look fools, always a bad plan even though true. So the tenders for the TP franchise would cost the DfT much less, less subsidy/more premium, if they offered the carrot of allowing TP to do an Orcats Raid on the established and substantial North-East to Scotland flows. The fact that it upsets the balance with others is by the by; whoever was determining the TP award was only interested in that, coming in under the anticipated subsidy and getting the credit for it.
 

quantinghome

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TPE do seem to be to be progressively encroaching on the XC domain. Might not be a bad thing if it can allow the XC Reading-Newcastle services to turnaround at York to release voyagers for strengthening.
I'd do it the other way and turnaround XC at Leeds.

TPE is now providing Leeds-Edinburgh. As others have noted Newton Aycliffe can roll out more carriages to make the TPE service 7-8 cars long if need be. That will move huge numbers of passengers.

Newcastle-Birmingham is best served via Doncaster, especially if the speeded up timetable from Birmingham to Sheffield manages to work. Extend to Edinburgh and beyond if maintaining direct connections to Sheffield and Derby to Scotland is considered necessary.

Terminating at Leeds reduces pressure on Leeds-York which is now second only to Castlefield in terms of congestion in the North. Most XC passengers change at
Leeds anyway.

The only ones losing out are Wakefield passengers.
 

Killingworth

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I'd do it the other way and turnaround XC at Leeds.

TPE is now providing Leeds-Edinburgh. As others have noted Newton Aycliffe can roll out more carriages to make the TPE service 7-8 cars long if need be. That will move huge numbers of passengers.

Newcastle-Birmingham is best served via Doncaster, especially if the speeded up timetable from Birmingham to Sheffield manages to work. Extend to Edinburgh and beyond if maintaining direct connections to Sheffield and Derby to Scotland is considered necessary.

Terminating at Leeds reduces pressure on Leeds-York which is now second only to Castlefield in terms of congestion in the North. Most XC passengers change at
Leeds anyway.

The only ones losing out are Wakefield passengers.
Would that mean that passengers from south of Leeds would have direct service frequency to York and northwards reduced from 2 tph to 1 tph? If so that would go down like a lead balloon.

Lots of potential options. Extending the via Doncaster service beyond Newcastle and cutting that through Leeds at Newcastle might be better.

No easy answers. I recall the days when the service missed out both Doncaster and Leeds beteen Sheffield and York - and still may to help recovery in times of severe delays.
 

theblackwatch

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It is to do with the power supply. There is supposed to be an upgrade in the pipeline. More details available in the lner-azuma-class-800-801 thread from this post onwards.LNER Azuma (Class 800/801)
The changeover is aparently around the Chathill neutral section.
I travelled from York to Edinburgh and back on TPE on Monday (using their £1 offer). On both the outward and return, the changeover occurred during the station stop at Morpeth. Incidentally, despite the £1 sale last week, neither of the services were particularly busy.
 

quantinghome

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Would that mean that passengers from south of Leeds would have direct service frequency to York and northwards reduced from 2 tph to 1 tph? If so that would go down like a lead balloon.
Not really. The journey via Leeds is 20 minutes longer so while trains leave Brum, Derby and Sheffield at half hour intervals they arrive in York only 10 minutes apart. As such it doesn't serve through traffic very well, as evidenced by the near total changeover at Leeds. In fact some of the trains via Doncaster have been speeded up so they now overtake the service via Leeds.
 

Glenn1969

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Why does XC need to serve Doncaster which has ECML services to York/Newcastle/Edinburgh and a TPE fast service to Sheffield for connections South? Leeds and Wakefield are a bigger market that IMHO needs to be 2tph fast via Westgate
 

Taunton

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TPE is now providing Leeds-Edinburgh. As others have noted Newton Aycliffe can roll out more carriages to make the TPE service 7-8 cars long if need be. That will move huge numbers of passengers.
The DfT appears not to do or even understand extra carriages. They are quite happy to let 2-car sets roll along for years with standees. Increasing frequency is something they sometimes do, as here (although in the wrong place), again they have little understanding that demand by passengers varies notably through the day, day of week, or at different points in the journey. Constant frequency (and thus capacity) regardless is their mantra.

The real irony is that TP have had capacity issues south of Newcastle - I not long ago stepped back from a TP service at Darlington one afternoon when travelling to York, and waited for the next main line service instead, because inside it resembled the Victoria Line. So guess what DfT did; increased capacity NORTH of Newcastle instead.
 
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EastisECML

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Someone on twitter started a rumour that XC were to pull out of Glasgow and Aberdeen and TPE were to replace on Liverpool services!
What does 'replace on Liverpool services' mean please?

I'm guessing XC might feel changing at Edinburgh for trains further into Scotland is simpler than running trains from one side of the capital to the other.
 

quantinghome

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Why does XC need to serve Doncaster which has ECML services to York/Newcastle/Edinburgh and a TPE fast service to Sheffield for connections South? Leeds and Wakefield are a bigger market that IMHO needs to be 2tph fast via Westgate
Capacity constraints going via Leeds mostly. Leeds-Micklefield now has 10 trains per hour in the peaks.

But also it's quicker via Doncaster.

And it's a useful connection for Hull and north Lincolnshire.
 

Iskra

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Capacity constraints going via Leeds mostly. Leeds-Micklefield now has 10 trains per hour in the peaks.

But also it's quicker via Doncaster.

And it's a useful connection for Hull and north Lincolnshire.
Doncaster has regular full-length trains to Scotland provided by LNER. The population of West Yorkshire is 2.5 million. Hull passengers going North would surely head to York not Doncaster?
 

quantinghome

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Doncaster has regular full-length trains to Scotland provided by LNER. The population of West Yorkshire is 2.5 million. Hull passengers going North would surely head to York not Doncaster?
To clarify I was considering connections to the Midlands not Scotland.
 

tbtc

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Last month I travelled on XC between Newcastle and Alnmouth. In both directions they were full enough for some to choose to.stand. I've travelled from Alnmouth to Edinburgh on similarly full trains. Obviously every service isn't full but they aren't as empty as some may image.
I'm not saying it's "fresh air", but the hourly XC services carry a small percentage of the total number of passengers on the ECML between Edinburgh and Newcastle.

Some services are busier than others, some are quieter, I'm not saying that there's *no* demand, but when there are so many well documented problems on the XC "core" then it seems daft to keep ten Voyagers north of York at a time when it'd be pretty easy to order additional 800/801/802s (full units or carriages) for TPE/LNER to cope with demand on the ECML.

It's the kind of change that I think would be made under BR (in those days, the only Cross Country services on the ECML north of Newcastle were effectively positioning journeys for HSTs, rather than an all day service) - but now that it's tied into various contracts with various franchises, it's probably more hassle to change.

Why does XC need to serve Doncaster which has ECML services to York/Newcastle/Edinburgh and a TPE fast service to Sheffield for connections South? Leeds and Wakefield are a bigger market that IMHO needs to be 2tph fast via Westgate
Doncaster isn't as attractive as Leeds (in passenger terms), which is why Arriva have tried to get a second path through West Yorkshire - it's more lucrative for them - but this needs to be balanced against the significant speed difference via Donny for longer distance passengers.

For example, looking at this afternoon, the 15:36 from York gets into Sheffield at 16:22... but the 15:44 from York doesn't get into Sheffield until over half an hour later (16:54) - so the diversion via Leeds can add at least twenty minutes to the journey time - XC is already uncompetitive for long distance journeys (hence Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh being a lot faster up the WCML) - so running the Edinburgh trains via Doncaster would provide a faster service from Birmingham/ Derby/ Sheffield (etc) to Edinburgh.

For example, replace XC's current service north east of Birmingham with:

  • Birmingham - Sheffield - Leeds (hourly)
  • Birmingham - Sheffield - Doncaster - York - Newcastle (hourly - bi-hourly extension to Glasgow via Edinburgh)

That would free up a number of Voyagers to double up some other services as far as Bristol/ Reading.

But, at the moment, we have a TOC (XC) operating the shortest trains on the ECML (ignoring minor things like the Northern shuttles to Morpeth) whilst that same TOC is crying out for additional capacity elsewhere on its network - it seems such a waste of resources - especially when LNER/TPE could order additional IET capacity from Newton Aycliffe.
 

route101

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What does 'replace on Liverpool services' mean please?

I'm guessing XC might feel changing at Edinburgh for trains further into Scotland is simpler than running trains from one side of the capital to the other.
TPE Liverpool services running to Glasgow and one or two running to Aberdeen. Nonsense.
 

Purple Orange

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  • Birmingham - Sheffield - Leeds (hourly)
  • Birmingham - Sheffield - Doncaster - York - Newcastle (hourly - bi-hourly extension to Glasgow via Edinburgh)
Surely the Leeds-Brum market requires more than 1 tph?

That all said, if XC was to be turned back at Newcastle, surely it would be more efficient to concede all XC services to TPE north of Newcastle as far as Edinburgh and concede all services north of Edinburgh to ScotRail.

Of course that all requires new 802s to be procured.
 

D6975

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I’d also terminate all XC routes at Reading and Bristol too, with those stations being interchange stations for Devon, Cornwall and Hampshire respectively.
Turning round XC at Bristol?? What do passengers do then? XC provide the main service between Bristol and Exeter. FGW fasts to the West Country via TM are few and far between and the only other services are all shacks stoppers. A much more sensible option would be to turn them at Exeter.
 

Class 170101

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For example, replace XC's current service north east of Birmingham with:

  • Birmingham - Sheffield - Leeds (hourly)
  • Birmingham - Sheffield - Doncaster - York - Newcastle (hourly - bi-hourly extension to Glasgow via Edinburgh)
The Birmingham to Leeds you note needs to go at least you York as whilst they would be the only station to lose out between Birmingham and York you are forgetting the links south of Birmingham that would also lose out.
 

irish_rail

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Turning round XC at Bristol?? What do passengers do then? XC provide the main service between Bristol and Exeter. FGW fasts to the West Country via TM are few and far between and the only other services are all shacks stoppers. A much more sensible option would be to turn them at Exeter.
Plymouth to the Midlands and north is already slow. 3 And a half hours just to reach new st. The idea that xc wouldn't serve the far south wests biggest city by far, also their traincrew depot, and also where there trains live at night, is frankly propostrous. XC won't be pulling out of Plymouth anytime soon. If anything more trains are needed as bristol to Taunton fasts are now hourly thanks to GWR deciding to send virtually everything up the b and h now.
 

swt_passenger

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Plymouth to the Midlands and north is already slow. 3 And a half hours just to reach new st. The idea that xc wouldn't serve the far south wests biggest city by far, also their traincrew depot, and also where there trains live at night, is frankly propostrous. XC won't be pulling out of Plymouth anytime soon. If anything more trains are needed as bristol to Taunton fasts are now hourly thanks to GWR deciding to send virtually everything up the b and h now.
...and isn’t that why the DfT’s last XC consultation proposed extending the XC services from Manchester to Bristol as far as Exeter, in order to close that very capacity gap?
 

swt_passenger

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And some do. Roughly every other train runs to Exeter or beyond.
Agreed, but the proposal made was that the majority would run through, to give a 2 tph service most of the day. As was discussed at the time, the obvious downside was the removal of most Paignton services.

But the purpose of the comment was to flesh out the point that both the franchisee and the DFT would rather run more to Exeter than cut back to Bristol.

(Although it seems strange to be discussing XC given the original thread title...)
 

anti-pacer

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I'm not complaining. I'm on the 1732 from Edinburgh-Liverpool train now, having taken advantage of TPE's £1 sale. I live in Maghull just north of Liverpool, but I'm back in Huddersfield for a few days. The fact that I could travel without changes both ways has been great. Also, as I now live in Liverpool, it's given us Scottish services we didn't have previously.

We've just arrived in Leeds and I'm somewhat surprised to see we're on Platform 8. Is this normal?
 

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