Why is 55 002 a static exhibit?

[43096]

It was externally presentable again prior to the 125 group having it, but was a very long way from in working order - the engine had been partially sectioned, among other major issues.

Presentable yes, but there were some bodywork areas that were not in good condition, particularly the gangway and area around it. Neville Hill did a fantastic job repairing it, including using a gangway connection off the scrap, accident damaged TRFB.

 

[alexl92]

The NRM's attitude to their Diesels confuses me. Last time I went there was a Deltic, the 47 and the 52 stuffed in the back corner of the Great Hall, so you could only really get a decent view of them from the front (whichever one was nearest the centre of the hall was blocking a decent view of the other 2), the 20 was tucked away in that bit at the outer end of the collections room (off the side of the great hall) and the diesel tent wasn't open (as it hasn't been whenever I've been in the past 5 years) so no idea if there were any in there - don't remember seeing the 37 or 40. Of all their diesels, only the 31 was actually on display.

I'll accept that diesels don't pull crowds like steam does. No issue with that. But if you're going to have them in your collection, surely you either
a) display them (if there's no room in the Halls, open the diesel tent again?),
b) restore them to running condition so they can earn hire fees or
c) loan them out as a static exhibit to other museums or heritage railways that can display them in a decent indoor location - though I admit there probably would be minimal uptake for this.

I'd like to see one of the bigger diesels - maybe the 52 or 55 if static - displayed in the station hall 'on the blocks'. Even the 86 would be better utilised there than where it presently is.

 

[trebor79]

To be honest 55 002 looked great when it was displayed at the Stephenson Railway Museum about 25 years ago now.
Mind, perhaps they realised it was "stolen" and taken for a joy ride on at least one occasion... That might explain some reticence to loan exhibits.

 

[DB]

To be honest 55 002 looked great when it was displayed at the Stephenson Railway Museum about 25 years ago now.
Mind, perhaps they realised it was "stolen" and taken for a joy ride on at least one occasion... That might explain some reticence to loan exhibits.

Too long ago to be relevant - their sudden change of policy has been within the past two or three years.

 

[Richard Scott]

Even the 86 would be better utilised there than where it presently is.

86? Thought it was 87001?

 

[DB]

86? Thought it was 87001?

It is 87001

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

But they can't be fully enjoyed that way can they?

Locomotives can only be fully enjoyed when they are working. The sight, sounds and smell make an entire experience.

Is seeing a stuffed animal in a natural history museum the same as watching the live creature in the wild? Of course not.

Interesting mindset, as if a non operational locomotive is comparable to a dead animal?

Very few people are enthusiastic enough to track down a certain locomotive at a running day at a preserved railway. They're most likely to experience it at a museum. If people have no interest in "stuffed animals" then why would they travel to the NRM? Where there are usually only static exhibits?

The NRM is being talked about as if it is some shadowy entity with malicious motives, but their strategy isn't exactly a secret, they publish it here;

https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf

When loaned out, locomotives experience wear and tear, and suffer damage. In some instances they've been badly neglected (see the entirely avoidable decline of the LEV1 for example!). It's often not in the best interests of the locomotive or item itself to be pressed into operation.

Added to that, objects on loan aren't available for visitors at the museum. They're only available to a smaller number of people on a different site, and only for a fee, on days where they're operating. The NRM's aim is to preserve railway history and tell the story to the public, to educate visitors about the history of the railway. The trains on display help to tell this story. If all the diesel locomotives at the NRM were considered to be operational and not put on static display then it would be very difficult to tell the story of the railway since the end of the steam era.

As per title. As far as I know it's complete and is actually in full working order, so why is it stuffed and mounted? Particularly when all of the other preserved deltics are currently either awaiting repair or have issues such as only 1 operational power unit?

Many years ago it was a static exhibit at the museum and heritage line I volunteered at. I had a sit in the cab and explored the engine room. One of the paid staff was alleged to have gone one further on a day there was nobody else on site, dragged it out of the shed, fired it up and gone for a trundle...

I think this illustrates the NRM's argument rather well.

55002 is not the only Deltic in operation. There are 5 others which have been used on the mainline in recent years.

But, because the other five are intensively used and experience wear, 55002 does happen to be the only one that isn't either broken or undergoing heavy maintenance. Hence the argument that that because the others are broken, 55002 ought to take it's turn to be used, probably until it is broken too.

OR, the NRM can keep the status quo and present it as the only example of it's type on static display, while also being maintained to the highest standards.

 

[D365]

It is 87001

Which has been a "stuffed animal" ever since withdrawal! 99% sure it will never run again.

 

[trebor79]

Interesting mindset, as if a non operational locomotive is comparable to a dead animal?

Very few people are enthusiastic enough to track down a certain locomotive at a running day at a preserved railway. They're most likely to experience it at a museum. If people have no interest in "stuffed animals" then why would they travel to the NRM? Where there are usually only static exhibits?

The NRM is being talked about as if it is some shadowy entity with malicious motives, but their strategy isn't exactly a secret, they publish it here;

https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf

When loaned out, locomotives experience wear and tear, and suffer damage. In some instances they've been badly neglected (see the entirely avoidable decline of the LEV1 for example!). It's often not in the best interests of the locomotive or item itself to be pressed into operation.

Added to that, objects on loan aren't available for visitors at the museum. They're only available to a smaller number of people on a different site, and only for a fee, on days where they're operating. The NRM's aim is to preserve railway history and tell the story to the public, to educate visitors about the history of the railway. The trains on display help to tell this story. If all the diesel locomotives at the NRM were considered to be operational and not put on static display then it would be very difficult to tell the story of the railway since the end of the steam era.

I think this illustrates the NRM's argument rather well.

55002 is not the only Deltic in operation. There are 5 others which have been used on the mainline in recent years.

But, because the other five are intensively used and experience wear, 55002 does happen to be the only one that isn't either broken or undergoing heavy maintenance. Hence the argument that that because the others are broken, 55002 ought to take it's turn to be used, probably until it is broken too.

OR, the NRM can keep the status quo and present it as the only example of it's type on static display, while also being maintained to the highest standards.

I think a number of very good points are made here. Of course the NRM is primarily full of stuffed and mounted exhibits, and that doesn't detract from the experience at all. There are some steam and diesel locomotives it would be thrilling to see working again - particularly the pre-grouping steam locos, some of which are very fine looking machines. But there seems to be a lot of attention and money spent on one or two "celebrity" locos such as Flying Scotsman that there is little in the money or motivation pot left for others.

I guess my original question has be answered, but the wider discussion around to run or not to run is interesting in itself. What do we think an ideal policy would be?
For me, I'd like to see less focus upon one or two crowd pullers for restoration/maintenance to running order in favour of some of the more unique, older and smaller locos. Arguably these simpler machine would be a lot cheaper to get and keep in that condition too. I realise it's unlikely to happen because they can't earn their keep on the mainline and probably wouldn't attract huge crowds to preserved lines, but it's a shame nonetheless. I'm sure if there was a publicity campaign to accompany any restoration more of the wider public would appreciate the historical significance of these locos.

 

[DB]

Interesting mindset, as if a non operational locomotive is comparable to a dead animal?

Very few people are enthusiastic enough to track down a certain locomotive at a running day at a preserved railway. They're most likely to experience it at a museum. If people have no interest in "stuffed animals" then why would they travel to the NRM? Where there are usually only static exhibits?

The NRM is being talked about as if it is some shadowy entity with malicious motives, but their strategy isn't exactly a secret, they publish it here;

https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf

When loaned out, locomotives experience wear and tear, and suffer damage. In some instances they've been badly neglected (see the entirely avoidable decline of the LEV1 for example!). It's often not in the best interests of the locomotive or item itself to be pressed into operation.

Added to that, objects on loan aren't available for visitors at the museum. They're only available to a smaller number of people on a different site, and only for a fee, on days where they're operating. The NRM's aim is to preserve railway history and tell the story to the public, to educate visitors about the history of the railway. The trains on display help to tell this story. If all the diesel locomotives at the NRM were considered to be operational and not put on static display then it would be very difficult to tell the story of the railway since the end of the steam era.

I think this illustrates the NRM's argument rather well.

55002 is not the only Deltic in operation. There are 5 others which have been used on the mainline in recent years.

But, because the other five are intensively used and experience wear, 55002 does happen to be the only one that isn't either broken or undergoing heavy maintenance. Hence the argument that that because the others are broken, 55002 ought to take it's turn to be used, probably until it is broken too.

OR, the NRM can keep the status quo and present it as the only example of it's type on static display, while also being maintained to the highest standards.

Afraid you are demonstrating that you don't know much about the situation.

55002 was very broken, and was restored to working order by a volunteer group. It subsequently developed an issue, and the volunteer group were looking at how to resolve this. However, as with the prototype HST (similar situation), the NRM decided that it wasn't interested in having it running. So this loco, as with the prototype HST, is in far better condition now than it was a few years ago, and the better condition is entirely as a result of voluntary restoration.

The argument about people not being able to see them if they are out working somewhere doesn't really hold water - it might if they were properly displayed, but given that most of the NRM diesels are shoved in corners out of the way where they can't be seen properly it's clear that the NRM isn't really interested in them.

 

[xotGD]

People most interested in preserved diesel locomotives attend diesel galas.

So aren't they the best places for the NRM to display their diesel exhibits?

And earn some money from hiring them out too.

 

[alexl92]

86? Thought it was 87001?

It is 87001

Thanks - you are of course both correct. My apologies, happy to be put right here.

People most interested in preserved diesel locomotives attend diesel galas.

So aren't they the best places for the NRM to display their diesel exhibits?

And earn some money from hiring them out too.

This is my thought. Especially if the museum aren't going to display thm properly!

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

People most interested in preserved diesel locomotives attend diesel galas.

So aren't they the best places for the NRM to display their diesel exhibits?

And earn some money from hiring them out too.

Do they?

Over a million people visit the NRM at it's two sites every year. The average diesel gala probably doesn't attract more than a thousand or so people, who pay a fair amount for the privilege. The average diesel gala attendee is a hardened enthusiast already, and the atmosphere at some is enough to actively put off a lot of people who would be interested from attending.

While some enthusiasts and "Bashers" might think that they are the only true enthusiasts, I think a lot of the misunderstanding in this thread stems from enthusiasts assuming that the NRM exist to serve their hobby, rather than being a major national museum with wider responsibilities.

I think a number of very good points are made here. Of course the NRM is primarily full of stuffed and mounted exhibits, and that doesn't detract from the experience at all. There are some steam and diesel locomotives it would be thrilling to see working again - particularly the pre-grouping steam locos, some of which are very fine looking machines. But there seems to be a lot of attention and money spent on one or two "celebrity" locos such as Flying Scotsman that there is little in the money or motivation pot left for others.

I guess my original question has be answered, but the wider discussion around to run or not to run is interesting in itself. What do we think an ideal policy would be?
For me, I'd like to see less focus upon one or two crowd pullers for restoration/maintenance to running order in favour of some of the more unique, older and smaller locos. Arguably these simpler machine would be a lot cheaper to get and keep in that condition too. I realise it's unlikely to happen because they can't earn their keep on the mainline and probably wouldn't attract huge crowds to preserved lines, but it's a shame nonetheless. I'm sure if there was a publicity campaign to accompany any restoration more of the wider public would appreciate the historical significance of these locos.

I suppose I'm probably considered unusual in that I don't necessarily want to see everything running. With a lot of the older stock that isn't operational I'd far rather see it kept on static display. As exciting it would be if they were to be working I think there are other historical considerations. The role of the museum is different from that of the preserved railway.

I tend to think that the NRM strikes a good balance. I don't think there's necessarily any need for the NRM to seriously be in the business of operating locomotives. The preservation scene in the UK is quite large, and anyone wanting to see an operational Deltic or Western could quite easily go elsewhere. Likewise even with the smaller, unique locomotives, there's likely something similar operational elsewhere.

I think there's a tendency among enthusiasts to see a static locomotive as dead or worthless (hence why so many rust away in the sidings of preserved railways!!!) but there's a lot of value in exhibiting even static engines.

 

[DB]

Do they?

Over a million people visit the NRM at it's two sites every year. The average diesel gala probably doesn't attract more than a thousand or so people, who pay a fair amount for the privilege. The average diesel gala attendee is a hardened enthusiast already, and the atmosphere at some is enough to actively put off a lot of people who would be interested from attending.

But to return to my previous point, the way most of the diesels are shoved away in corners at the NRM means that even people who are actually interested in them can't see them properly, and the general public will take no notice at all.

 

[43096]

But to return to my previous point, the way most of the diesels are shoved away in corners at the NRM means that even people who are actually interested in them can't see them properly, and the general public will take no notice at all.

Here’s a thought for you: the diesel and electric era is now over 60 years, out of around 190 years of railway history, so just under 1/3. Is the NRM representative of that?

 

[Richard Scott]

Here’s a thought for you: the diesel and electric era is now over 60 years, out of around 190 years of railway history, so just under 1/3. Is the NRM representative of that?

Even longer if you count shunting locomotives and railcars, which I believe the GWR were certainly running regularly pre-war?

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Here’s a thought for you: the diesel and electric era is now over 60 years, out of around 190 years of railway history, so just under 1/3. Is the NRM representative of that?

Well you can't have it both ways!

Until recently the NRM considered it best to loan out it's diesel locomotives to preservation groups for operation. Hence they weren't on display, and as you say they're not well represented at the museum.

Now that these locomotives have been recalled for use as static exhibits people are complaining, and saying that you can't fully experience a diesel unless it's operational.

Also your arithmetic is a little off. The Diesel era has been around for 60 or so years, but most diesel stock less than 30 or 40 years old is still in service and not of a huge amount of historical interest. So rather than a third you're maybe talking about 10-15% at most.

 

[TheBeard]

There was a lot of cuts a few years ago cos there was no magic honey tree. No doubt the penny pinchers are in charge still, and may have wearied of certain whining cranks.
Perhaps it is time for a well needed morale booster. Say KX-Aberdeen tnt 37025 ?

 

[DB]

Now that these locomotives have been recalled for use as static exhibits people are complaining, and saying that you can't fully experience a diesel unless it's operational.

Describing them as 'exhibits' is stretching a point when they are shoved in inaccessible corners with little or no interpretation.

There was a lot of cuts a few years ago cos there was no magic honey tree. No doubt the penny pinchers are in charge still, and may have wearied of certain whining cranks.
Perhaps it is time for a well needed morale booster. Say KX-Aberdeen tnt 37025 ?

Not sure how this is relevant - the diesel restoration and maintenance was mostly done by voluntary groups at no cost to the NRM.

 

[TheBeard]

Describing them as 'exhibits' is stretching a point when they are shoved in inaccessible corners with little or no interpretation.



Not sure how this is relevant - the diesel restoration and maintenance was mostly done by voluntary groups at no cost to the NRM.

It's the economic cost of damage to a priceless exhibit...

 

[Cowley]

Describing them as 'exhibits' is stretching a point when they are shoved in inaccessible corners with little or no interpretation.

Also there’s a big difference between stripping down a steam locomotive and paying for a full ten year boiler ticket at the cost of hundreds of thousands of pounds compared to a few willing people getting together and resurrecting a diesel locomotive (still not cheap but nowhere near the cost of the above) that’s been running in the not too distant past and where the skills are around to restore and improve something that’s gathering dust in a forgotten corner of the museum.
The NRM felt it was a good policy at one point but has changed its mind since.
A change at the top may well alter that policy again but people will probably be a bit wary next time unfortunately.

 

[DB]

It's the economic cost of damage to a priceless exhibit...

In which case, surely Flying Scotsman should be withdrawn from use immediately and become a static exhibit - if it's too risky to allow diesels out on preserved lines at 25mph then it's certainly too risky to allow one of the two most high-profile exhibits out on the mainline.

 

[Cowley]

In which case, surely Flying Scotsman should be withdrawn from use immediately and become a static exhibit - if it's too risky to allow diesels out on preserved lines at 25mph then it's certainly too risky to allow one of the two most high-profile exhibits out on the mainline.

Exactly.

 

[Townsend Hook]

That's a very simplistic view - there is nothing unusual in a museum of machines demonstrating those machines working.

I assume that you are therefore also opposed to them spending a fortune on restoring Flying Scotsman to working order?

Flying Moneypit? I am as it happens, talk about throwing good money after bad.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I can understand the issues with mainline running,after all id hate to see any loco end up like DP2. However I can't see the harm pootling along in retirement at a stately 25mph on a heritage railway.

 

[paul1609]

There's a marine diesel company in or around Colchester who have a bunch of ex-Paxman employees who can still repair them

Someone posted a link a few months back

I posted the link and I had experience of both types Deltic Engines on and off over my whole naval career.
Whilst the skill will become an issue the real show stopper to my mind will be the lack of spare parts cylinders rings bearings etc.
Many of these are pretty specialist to the type of engine and have been out of production for many years. Finding people to re-engineer these parts and certify the new parts to conform to modern health and safety requirements will at best be eye-wateringly expensive and at worst impossible.
The last deltic engines in service in the Royal Navy the T9 engines in the Hunt Class had an extremely expensive total care package in their last 5 years that the contractor lost money on. Come renewal time the MOD couldn't find anybody to take on the package so replaced the engines with conventional CAT engines.

 

[JonathanP]

Never say never.

At the dawn of Steam preservation no-one would have believed we would one day be building brand new full size riveted boilers, and casting/machining new cylinder blocks and driving wheels.
Meanwhile the Class 89 team have been designing and manufacturing brand new electronics to replace the originals which use now-unobtainable parts.

Preservationistss can be extremely ingenious!

 

[Alanko]

55002 was very broken, and was restored to working order by a volunteer group. It subsequently developed an issue, and the volunteer group were looking at how to resolve this. However, as with the prototype HST (similar situation), the NRM decided that it wasn't interested in having it running. So this loco, as with the prototype HST, is in far better condition now than it was a few years ago, and the better condition is entirely as a result of voluntary restoration.

I assume the answer to "the volunteer group were looking at how to resolve this" is money?

As far as I understand, the outfit that restored the HST prototype knew that they would have to hand the loco back eventually? Their master plan was to restore a full Valenta-powered HST set?

I can understand the issues with mainline running,after all id hate to see any loco end up like DP2. However I can't see the harm pootling along in retirement at a stately
25mph on a heritage railway.

Maybe a daft question, but do you incur other issues if a loco only ever pootles along at 25 mph? I assume Deltics don't have DPFs that need cleared out!

Never say never.

Indeed! The sun might shine brighter in the future. It might be easier to recreate unobtainable parts in the future, or peer deeper into an engine without having to use invasive measures or a heavy reliance on a dwindling knowledge base of retired engineers, etc.

 

[DB]

I assume the answer to "the volunteer group were looking at how to resolve this" is money?

So far as I am aware it was primarily an engineering question.

As far as I understand, the outfit that restored the HST prototype knew that they would have to hand the loco back eventually? Their master plan was to restore a full Valenta-powered HST set?

They were expecting the loan period to be renewed.

 

[Richard Scott]

Maybe a daft question, but do you incur other issues if a loco only ever pootles along at 25 mph? I assume Deltics don't have DPFs that need cleared out!

You can get glazing of the cylinder liner bores due to excessive idling and very short time at full power especially on a rebuilt engine that hasn't been load banked. This then causes the engine to smoke.