Why is East Croydon to Ebbsfleet International only £11.50?

[marcgr]

Why is East Croydon to Ebbsfleet International only £11.50?

The Off-Peak Day Return is only £11.50 but the Off-Peak Day Return from St Pancras International to Ebbsfleet International is £12.50! Why?

 

[LondonLarry]

Why is East Croydon to Ebbsfleet International only £11.50?

The Off-Peak Day Return is only £11.50 but the Off-Peak Day Return from St Pancras International to Ebbsfleet International is £12.50! Why?

However, the Anytime ticket is £12.90 single, £23.70 return from East Croydon; from St Pancras it's £12.20 single and £18.90 return! Which is pretty much what I'd expect.

 

[Railjet]

What would be the routing for the "Not London" fares?

 

[dan_atki]

What would be the routing for the "Not London" fares?

NXEC cannot find one and travelling by any route avoiding London is invalid under the Routeing Guide anyways which says the only permitted route for Croydon Stations to Ebbsfleet International is 'LONDON'. Looks like there are many 'Not London' fares which are now rendered useless with Routeing Guide changes...

 

[John @ home]

What would be the routing for the "Not London" fares?

Origin: CROYDON STATIONS
Destination: EBBSFLEET INT SE
Route: NOT LONDON
CDR: OFF-PEAK DAY R
Restriction: B1
Adult Price: £9.70

Origin: CROYDON STATIONS
Destination: EBBSFLEET INT SE
Route: +ANY PERMITTED
CDR: OFF-PEAK DAY R
Restriction: B1
Adult Price: £11.50

East Croydon is a member of Croydon Group Routeing Point.
Ebbsfleet International is a Routeing Point.

Croydon Group ... Ebbsfleet International ... LONDON

Now you may think that is a contradiction. But not to the magnificent ATOC! Weren't ATOC the people who wrote "Route London and Route Not London are not mutually exclusive"?

John

 

[dan_atki]

Now you may think that is a contradiction. But not to the magnificent ATOC! Weren't ATOC the people who wrote "Route London and Route Not London are not mutually exclusive"?

John

Certainly a very bizarre situation.

A route London ticket can be used on a route avoiding London if the corresponding route Not London fare is cheaper, and route Not London can be used on a route passing through London if the corresponding route London fare is cheaper, in which case 'Not London' is a bit of a lie...

Here the Not London is cheaper than the London so you can't touch London at all. If any route is to exist it will involve some convoluted method of getting to Herne Hill to get on the Southeastern!

However, selecting 'route Not London' on NXEC's WebTIS journey planner results in a 'No fares have been found' error. A half truth I guess - there are fares, there's just no services they can be used on...!

 

[glynn80]

A route London ticket can be used on a route avoiding London if the corresponding route Not London fare is cheaper, and route Not London can be used on a route passing through London if the corresponding route London fare is cheaper, in which case 'Not London' is a bit of a lie...

Here the Not London is cheaper than the London so you can't touch London at all. If any route is to exist it will involve some convoluted method of getting to Herne Hill to get on the Southeastern!

I've been thinking about situations such as the above, where there are Route Specific fares but no mapped routes within the NRG that include said route.

Reading through the guide, it implies that not all valid routes are located within the guide:

You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or the route
is described as "any permitted". An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.

However it also states the following which contradicts the above:

If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to choose any of the routes listed in the Guide. Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description.

This is probably a situation that cannot be answered definitively without ATOC clarification.

 

[dan_atki]

I could argue by the above that going via Watford, Birmingham, Leicester, Peterborough, Cambridge, and Stratford is 'Not London' and as such is valid. I doubt I'd get anywhere but I could try!

Then again 'Not London' isn't really route specific if I become totally picky with the system - it gives me no indication at all of which route may be valid by it unlike say Southampton to Brighton, Route Barnham - where it is obvious travel should be made via Barnham.

Even so, WebTIS gives no results when forced to look for 'Not London', and I expect the journey is near impossible with about 5/6 changes which most people wouldn't go to the hassle of for the sake of less than two quid.

 

[glynn80]

I could argue by the above that going via Watford, Birmingham, Leicester, Peterborough, Cambridge, and Stratford is 'Not London' and as such is valid. I doubt I'd get anywhere but I could try!

Then again 'Not London' isn't really route specific if I become totally picky with the system - it gives me no indication at all of which route may be valid by it unlike say Southampton to Brighton, Route Barnham - where it is obvious travel should be made via Barnham.

Any tickets with a route "Not" and then station, is defined as Route Specific in the same way as those tickets printed with just a routed station.

The definition printed in the TSA Help Guide states:

Route Specific restricts passengers to travelling via a specific route between their chosen origin and destination stations. The route is usually defined by a station, but can sometimes be defined by a prohibition (e.g. “not London”).

 

[philjo]

The only route I can think of is East Croydon - Clapham Junction.
Change for Willesden & round the North London Line to Stratford. Stratford-Ebbsfleet.
(or possibly using jubilee libe to Stratford?)

otherwise you have to go via Ashford!

I assume the fare is there for when the full HS timetable starts in December, so no trains currently run to let you use it.

 

[dan_atki]

Technically speaking it is route specific as you say but it doesn't help matters. Take Southampton to Brighton route 'Not London', for instance - there are at least two valid routes for that, of which neither share a common station other than the origin and destination.

Using such a description to help determine what could be a valid route (without assistance from the NRG) is useless and gets you nowhere. When there is also a route 'Barnham' available then you get the idea you should go via Barnham (i.e. only one such route).

If we look at things in South London, picking something random out of a hat - East Croydon to Wimbledon. Only route available here is 'Not London' but that doesn't help the passenger make a conscious decision about a valid route - 'Not Clapham Jn' would make things clearer for a passenger (e.g. Earlsfield to Crystal Palace).

There are many possible routeings for such a journey which are 'Not London':
1) Tramlink
2) via Clapham Junction
3) via West Croydon and Sutton
4) via (West Croydon,) Norwood Junction, Crystal Palace, and Tulse Hill.

Judging by the price of the ticket, I conclude the route expected is option 2), in which case they should make a positive route description (of 'Clapham Junction') rather than a negative (of 'Not London'), to assist the passenger.

As I said, based on your quote of the NRG

It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.

Well the route I suggested above for East Croydon to Ebbsfleet isn't listed, the route specific 'Not London' is cheaper, undefined in the routeing guide, avoids London, and does not involve doubling back anywhere. By the instructions that means I can choose any route in the guide that doesn't include London. So let's go via Birmingham instead - that isn't London... The sense of unreasonable-ness here says that it can't be valid.

That's not to say there won't be people who don't take the mickey - obvious answer would be to change 'Not London' into something that is more meaningful, and gives an idea where travel should be via. After all, I can only suspect such a ticket is to be used via Herne Hill or Peckham Rye but have no definitive answer.

'Not London' is already odd enough as it is meaning 'do not touch a London Terminal' (or at least that's all I can assume, judging there is no definitive answer to what it is*!). London is a big place, and to travel via Clapham Junction (in zone 2, London) on a 'Not London' ticket seems very unintuitive but is valid. Having 'Not London' fares for flows solely within the zones is something odd too.

*The likes of 'Not Clapham Jn' or 'Not Doncaster' are slightly more specific, but could be argued to be as meaningless as 'Not London'. The fact that a 'Not London' can be used via London if it is more expensive than the route 'London' is also rather silly...

 

[glynn80]

*The likes of 'Not Clapham Jn' or 'Not Doncaster' are slightly more specific, but could be argued to be as meaningless as 'Not London'. The fact that a 'Not London' can be used via London if it is more expensive than the route 'London' is also rather silly...

Your assuming the terms London and Not London are mututally exclusive, which they "obviously" are not .

 

[dan_atki]

Your assuming the terms London and Not London are mututally exclusive, which they "obviously" are not .

We know they're not mutually exclusive (but then again ATOC's use of logic descriptors here is illogical and defies logic), but does everyone in the country?

Do a survey of passengers passing through a station asking 'Do you think a ticket marked 'NOT London' can ever be legitimately used via London?'. I suspect about 95%+ will say 'no, never, as it says 'NOT''.

 

[gingerheid]

I read all that.

I have a sore head.

 

[marcgr]

I don't understanud most of the above. Startford International isn't open yet and there are no off-peak trains from Ashford. The only way is via London and the easiest is on First Capital Connect direct.

I only found out becuase I had bought a 1 day Travelcard(Zones 1-6) from East Croydon then a £12.50 return from St Pancras.

On my way back from Ebbsfleet the ticket machine there says it's £12.50 return to East Croydon!

 

[dan_atki]

I read all that.

I have a sore head.

I don't understanud most of the above. Startford International isn't open yet and there are no off-peak trains from Ashford. The only way is via London and the easiest is on First Capital Connect direct.

The principle point of the thread is that a ticket from East Croydon to Ebbsfleet is cheaper than one from St Pancras to Ebbsfleet, despite needing to go via St Pancras to get there. What doesn't make sense here is both fares are priced by Southeastern so there is a mistake somewhere along the line!

We notice too that there is a 'Not London' fare for the journey which is useless as there is no valid route East Croydon to Ebbsfleet that doesn't pass through a London Terminal. Me and glynn80 were discussing the routeing guide intricacies and 'Not London' as a 'route' generally (not just to this instance), and my point of how non-descript it is and how it could be open to abuse in some cases.

On my way back from Ebbsfleet the ticket machine there says it's £12.50 return to East Croydon!

Hmmmm dunno where it's got that figure from! No £12.50 fare for the journey at all.

 

[OwlMan]

What is the shortest route? - that is valid even if not in the NRG

Peter

 

[dan_atki]

Judging from the fact it is only reachable on HS1 I'd say the shortest route is via St Pancras (on the route used by FCC).

St Pancras is closer to Croydon than Ashford is, and Ebbsfleet is closer to St Pancras than to Ashford.

Can't find out the exact distance as there is not yet any miles/chains data available (from what I looked at) for HS1.

 

[krus_aragon]

Judging from the fact it is only reachable on HS1 I'd say the shortest route is via St Pancras (on the route used by FCC).

St Pancras is closer to Croydon than Ashford is, and Ebbsfleet is closer to St Pancras than to Ashford.

Can't find out the exact distance as there is not yet any miles/chains data available (from what I looked at) for HS1.

There's a point. Do you count tube distances for cross-London transfers when trying to find the shortest route?

 

[yorkie]

IIRC no, they count as zero mileage.

 

[glynn80]

What is the shortest route? - that is valid even if not in the NRG

Peter

The shortest route is not always valid.

The NRG states the following at the beginning of Section A

WHEN TO USE THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE

Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual.

Emphasis added personally

In this case the correct fare would not have been paid to travel via London. The fare paid would have been the "Not London" fare and the fares manual lists a higher priced "London" fare. If the passenger did not pay the difference they would not be permitted to travel on the actual shortest route (the one via London) and would be forced to travel either on the shortest route that avoided London or any other route listed in the guide which avoided London (of which there are currently none).

 

[dan_atki]

I disagree they'd be forced to travel on the shortest route avoiding London - the routeing guide doesn't say that. As you've said the shortest route between A and B is valid providing the route on the ticket allows this.

It doesn't say what to do when the routeing doesn't allow the shortest route to be used, and I very much doubt you'd look for the shortest allowed by it.

Here that'd create huge discrepancies as this fare would have to be valid via Ashford (and the shortest route with 'frequent services' there). I'm not able to check right now but I suspect such a route is via Tonbridge, in completely the opposite direction from Croydon.

This leads to the next question - is East Croydon to Ashford International permitted via Tonbridge?

 

[paul1609]

East Croydon to Ashford international via Tonbridge is the route most normals would take.
Its just over 1hr 30 mins with one change at Tonbridge and there is a "not London" fare for the route. The alternative a few mins longer is to change at London Bridge for which there is a formerly "any permitted" now "not HS1" fare.
I'm not sure that the HS1 route via St Pancras will work out quicker when the service is fully up and running I think that most people would prefer a cross platform interchange at London Bridge or Tonbridge (over the bridge at Tonbridge in the down direction) to St Pancras.

I reckon your East Croydon to Ebbsfleet Fare comes from the Northfleet fares by the way, the stations are about 10 mins walk apart. The only reason I can see that anyone would want to travel to Ebbsfleet is to catch a Eurostar and from east Croydon the obvious way would be to catch it at St Pancras. If you were to travel from Ebbsfleet by Eurostar you could get free travel on Southeastern from London bridge to one of the gateway stations.