Why is there no mention that Elizabeth Line to Heathrow commands a premium?

[pethadine82]

I had a nightmare journey and wanted to clarify what the policy is for the Elizabeth Line for journeys to Heathrow, as I was not aware that between Hayes and Harlington there is a premium of £6.90 to the airport.
I found out as my superloop bus terminated at Hayes town and there was no other suplerloops for over 20 mins to forced to use the 'Liz line.
Luckily TfL refunded it when I complained as there was no logical reason for the superloop service to terminate early, (or if there was this was not communicated to us)

 

[redreni]

I had a nightmare journey and wanted to clarify what the policy is for the Elizabeth Line for journeys to Heathrow, as I was not aware that between Hayes and Harlington there is a premium of £6.90 to the airport.
I found out as my superloop bus terminated at Hayes town and there was no other suplerloops for over 20 mins to forced to use the 'Liz line.
Luckily TfL refunded it when I complained as there was no logical reason for the superloop service to terminate early, (or if there was this was not communicated to us)

TfL don't proactively tell you what the fares are on any line. While the Elizabeth Line Heathrow premium is unusual (possibly unique?) in deviating from the usual zonal fares that apply to other TfL-operated services within the numbered zones, most non-TfL national rail lines within the PAYG area charge their own pirate fares.

So a PAYG system that had a simple and predictable fare structure before 2011 now requires you to check the fare for every new journey you intend to make, unless you want to effectively write TfL a blank cheque. It's as if Amazon Fresh were to remove all the price labels from its shelves and expect customers just to accept that they'll be charged whatever, with a facility to check prices on the app for anyone really determined to know the price before they buy.

I'm impressed you got a refund out of TfL. Their website says no compensation for bus delays, irrespective of the length.

 

[TFN]

One of the only mentions you can find is on a TfL map where there is a dagger saying “Special fares apply to/from Heathrow Airport via the Elizabeth Line” or something like that.

 

[pethadine82]

I suppose give the deficit that TfL have they don't really want to advertise cheaper fares. As to the refund, I was calm and stated my point, and the operator organised the refund.

 

[43066]

So a PAYG system that had a simple and predictable fare structure before 2011 now requires you to check the fare for every new journey you intend to make, unless you want to effectively write TfL a blank cheque. It's as if Amazon Fresh were to remove all the price labels from its shelves and expect customers just to accept that they'll be charged whatever, with a facility to check prices on the app for anyone really determined to know the price before they buy.

The fares to airport are predicable and can be looked up as easily as other contactless fares which, as you’ve noted, vary by operator. The comparison to Amazon Fresh removing prices really is nonsense - nobody is “writing a blank cheque” just by making a journey they haven’t bothered to check the fare for.

In the OP’s example they even refunded the excess paid over the bus, so there is no issue.

EDIT: the deviation also isn’t unique. Piccadilly line journeys from zone 1 to the airport are always charged at peak fare, even when made off peak, so a premium is charged over regular zone 1 to 6 journeys.

 

[Haywain]

most non-TfL national rail lines within the PAYG area charge their own pirate fares.

This is a ridiculous statement. The fares are clear to anyone who cares to look them up.

 

[redreni]

The comparison to Amazon Fresh removing prices really is nonsense - nobody is “writing a blank cheque” just by making a journey they haven’t bothered to check the fare for.

This is a ridiculous statement. The fares are clear to anyone who cares to look them up.

Forgive me, but isn't the comparison with a hypothetical scenario where Amazon Fresh takes down all the price labels perfectly apt?

In what respect would it be different? They would say, as you both have, that it is possible to find out the price if you care to look it up.

Who knows, maybe that is what supermarkets would do if the regulators of their industry would let them? Which they wouldn't and don't.

 

[Haywain]

Who knows, maybe that is what supermarkets would do if the regulators of their industry would let them? Which they wouldn't and don't.

Supermarkets have regulators?

 

[tspaul26]

Supermarkets have regulators?

Yes, although it is a supply chain regulator rather than consumer side so wouldn’t be involved in shelf ticket price displays.

 

[wilbers]

Supermarkets have regulators?

There is the competition and markets authority as well.

Regulator clamps down on supermarket pricing following Which? campaign - Which? News

Supermarkets will have to make food pricing clearer, including on special offers

www.which.co.uk

Supermarkets must improve grocery pricing to make it easier for shoppers to compare products, the competition regulator has announced.
The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) findings come after a Which? campaign called on supermarkets to improve unit pricing and introduce it on promotions, including loyalty prices such as Tesco's Clubcard offers.

 

[Samzino]

Fares can be checked on the singlefarechecker part of TFL, £6.90 on their website is in-line with what OP was charged.

As far as I know the cost is down to Heathrow themselves charging a tunnel fee for the Elizabeth Line to use the Airport tunnel. Last I checked it was £5 per single ticket

The above Screenshot from the TFL singlefarechecker.

Single fare finder

Find fares between any two stations in London

tfl.gov.uk

 

[43066]

Forgive me, but isn't the comparison with a hypothetical scenario where Amazon Fresh takes down all the price labels perfectly apt?

In what respect would it be different? They would say, as you both have, that it is possible to find out the price if you care to look it up.

Who knows, maybe that is what supermarkets would do if the regulator of their industry would let them? Which it wouldn't and doesn't.

There would be nothing AIUI to prevent supermarkets doing just that, so long as they referred you to a price list rather than pricing up certain items individually.

Surely it’s obvious why physical supermarket products aren’t the same as journeys on a transport network bought on a tap in tap out basis across various modes. There’s no way for the system to display a price in advance because it’s unknown until the journey is completed, and the person is simply tapping in and out of the ticket barriers, hence you need to use the relevant app or website to find the price in advance. Unless you’d like to go back to paper tickets bought in advance for all journeys!?

Your reference to “pirate fares” suggests a level of deceit where this is none. The fares are all knowable in advance for those who can be bothered to look them up.

Yet another example of criticism of the railway system over a non issue!

 

[Haywain]

There is the competition and markets authority as well.

That doesn't alter the fact that most pricing in supermarkets is essentially unregulated - it may have to be clearly shown on the shelves but that doesn't mean it has to be highlighted which is the cheapest option. For those who wish to know it is far easier to check what fares one will be paying for a rail journey.

 

[redreni]

Just to explain a couple of points

1. As I mentioned further up the thread, I had no objection to PAYG as a method of payment when the fares were zonal and predictable. The Mayor and the DfT were, at one time, bringing National Rail lines into the PAYG system by requiring bidders for the relevant franchise to agree to charge the London fares. Thus when National Express East Anglia won the franchise previously held by One Railway, they introduced Oyster PAYG and charged the same zonal fares as London Underground. If that approach had continued, I would not level these criticisms of PAYG. It was easy to find out the fares, easy to remember what the fare between any two zones would be, and easy to grasp how the fares related to the number of zones crossed (albeit one needed to account for the zone 1 premium and the special fare for a zone 1-only single). I would have been happier if fare charts had been posted prominently in stations, which would have been feasible as the fare structure was relatively straightforward.
2. When I speak of 'pirate fares' I simply mean fares that do not conform to the above, especially where they are higher. I don't agree with such fares being allowed to continue to exist, since they undermine the cohesiveness of the public transport network in London, albeit I understand that train fares have always differed from tube fares and I understand why the plan to bring rail fares in line with tube fares stalled. But I will continue to think of them as pirate fares.
3. If pirate fares (or whatever you prefer to call them) are to be allowed to exist, then PAYG is not an appropriate way of collecting fares, in my humble opinion. You need a simple fare structure to make PAYG reasonable, otherwise passengers find it difficult (albeit not impossible, I concede, but difficult) to compare options involving different routes or modes. The fare structure is far too complex to be appropriate for PAYG. Expansion will only make this worse. That doesn't mean we have to go back to paper tickets, but it does mean we need tickets. Again, imho.

 

[All Line Rover]

Just to explain a couple of points

1. ...I would have been happier if fare charts had been posted prominently in stations, which would have been feasible as the fare structure was relatively straightforward.
2. ...
3. ...That doesn't mean we have to go back to paper tickets, but it does mean we need tickets. Again, imho.

Completely agree. Making prices obscure and prompting customers into paying more than they would expect is unacceptable behaviour for any business.

 

[plugwash]

Fares can be checked on the singlefarechecker part of TFL

Be very careful though, the autocomplete on the fare checker is ****, which means it's easy to select the wrong station.

 

[43066]

As I mentioned further up the thread, I had no objection to PAYG as a method of payment when the fares were zonal and predictable. The Mayor and the DfT were, at one time, bringing National Rail lines into the PAYG system by requiring bidders for the relevant franchise to agree to charge the London fares. Thus when National Express East Anglia won the franchise previously held by One Railway, they introduced Oyster PAYG and charged the same zonal fares as London Underground. If that approach had continued, I would not level these criticisms of PAYG. It was easy to find out the fares, easy to remember what the fare between any two zones would be, and easy to grasp how the fares related to the number of zones crossed (albeit one needed to account for the zone 1 premium and the special fare for a zone 1-only single). I would have been happier if fare charts had been posted prominently in stations, which would have been feasible as the fare structure was relatively straightforward.

It is easier than ever to find the fares, and they’re still predictable! Elizabeth line fares are for the most part the same as the tube system within the zones. Paying a premium for an airport service is common practice all over the world, and also happens to a lesser extent on the Piccadilly line. I hope the OP doesn’t use contactless on the Heathrow Express without checking first!

When I speak of 'pirate fares' I simply mean fares that do not conform to the above, especially where they are higher. I don't agree with such fares being allowed to continue to exist, since they undermine the cohesiveness of the public transport network in London, albeit I understand that train fares have always differed from tube fares and I understand why the plan to bring rail fares in line with tube fares stalled. But I will continue to think of them as pirate fares.

Well that strikes me as a highly unusual viewpoint, and a ridiculously biased way of describing the situation. On the contrary, I can remember how for years it wasn’t possible to use Oyster on national rail. This causes a great deal of irritation and people were very thankful when it was introduced, with contactless following as a convenient next step. The fact national rail is generally more expensive than the tube is unfortunate, but was the case prior to contactless. Nobody is in any way being mislead by the fare system, as your description implies.

If pirate fares (or whatever you prefer to call them) are to be allowed to exist, then PAYG is not an appropriate way of collecting fares, in my humble opinion. You need a simple fare structure to make PAYG reasonable, otherwise passengers find it difficult (albeit not impossible, I concede, but difficult) to compare options involving different routes or modes. The fare structure is far too complex to be appropriate for PAYG. Expansion will only make this worse. That doesn't mean we have to go back to paper tickets, but it does mean we need tickets. Again, imho.

You can buy tickets for journeys if you must, albeit it’s more expensive and less convenient than tapping in, so virtually nobody does! I can’t imagine many of the millions of people who use contactless on London’s excellent integrated transport network would wish to go back to buying tickets. The idea that PAYG should not be available is genuinely one of the strangest suggestions I’ve ever seen on this forum.

Completely agree. Making prices obscure and prompting customers into paying more than they would expect is unacceptable behaviour for any business.

That isn’t what’s happening here, though. The fares charged are clearly available to see online. If people don’t bother to check that’s their issue.

 

[All Line Rover]

That isn’t what’s happening here, though. The fares paid are clearly available to see online. If people don’t bother to check that’s their issue.

Are customers told this at stations before tapping their cards and advised to check the price before tapping?

 

[43066]

Are customers told this at stations before tapping their cards and advised to check the price before tapping?

Told what? They can ask about journeys at TfL stations, but most people don’t need to do that because they are aware the internet exists, and it’s so glaringly obvious where to find the information.

Why is there this constant need amongst posters on here to look for conspiracies and suggest ulterior motives!?

 

[plugwash]

The fares charged are clearly available to see online.

No they bloody well aren't.

To get correct results out of the single fares finder you have to know that TFL regard the rail and tube stations of the same name at heathrow as different stations. Otherwise you are very likely to incorrectly select the tube station and be shown the wrong fares.

Why is there this constant need amongst posters on here to look for conspiracies and suggest ulterior motives!?

I don't think it's a conspiricy as such, but I do think there is gross incompetance, combined with little motivation to more clearly communicate to customers a massive price discrepancy between two different TFL services to the same destination (something which afaict doesn't happen anywhere else on the network).

TFL wants to have their cake and eat it with the lizzie, treating it like a tube line when it suits them, and not doing so when it doesn't.

 

[redreni]

It is easier than ever to find the fares, and they’re still predictable!
[...]


You can buy tickets for journeys if you must, albeit it’s more expensive and less convenient than tapping in, so virtually nobody does! I can’t imagine many of the millions of people who use contactless on London’s excellent integrated transport network would wish to go back to buying tickets. The idea that PAYG should not be available is genuinely one of the strangest suggestions I’ve ever seen on this forum.



That isn’t what’s happening here, though. The fares paid are clearly available to see online. If people don’t bother to check that’s their issue.

The fares are not predictable. I have lived in London for 18 years and I still regularly have to look them up, even when I know which modes I want to use and which zones I need to cross.

Therefore, the only way to benefit from the greater convenience of just tapping in and out is, at least for journeys one doesn't make regularly, to write a figurative blank cheque. If you have to look the fare up then you might as well have paid at that point, rather than travelling first and being charged later as happens with contactless PAYG.

Let's be real, most regular travellers such as commuters rely on capping. If you know you're going to hit the cap before you start travelling then you know what you're going to have to pay. I don't see why anyone would object, in that case, to buying a travelcard on their phone at the start of the capping period (be it a day, week or month) instead of having to mess about tapping in and out every time, even at ungated stations, as happens now. (I assume, of course, that the current penalty pricing of peak day travelcards would be reduced in line with the current PAYG daily caps and that travelcards would be available as e-tickets). For the umpteenth time, I am not talking about going back to paper tickets!

As for your blanket statement that tickets are more expensive than PAYG, you have hit on my other principal objection to PAYG. Thank you for raising it. People believe that PAYG is always cheaper, but it is not true. It's not universally true and it's not even a decent rule of thumb. It is rare for me to make a journey within the contactless PAYG area at the weekend where tickets aren't cheaper, mainly because Railcard discounts aren't given and every adult is eligible for a Network Railcard.

 

[43066]

No they bloody well aren't.

To get correct results out of the single fares finder you have to know that TFL regard the rail and tube stations of the same name at heathrow as different stations. Otherwise you are very likely to incorrectly select the tube station and be shown the wrong fares.

Rubbish in rubbish out, as they say (as with any IT based system!).

It’s very obvious on the single fare finders. If I type “Heathrow” into the destination search bar it populates a list of both Tube and NR stations, the relevant roundel is shown and the stations are named differently, indeed the poster unthread at #11 has managed it. I’m not sure how it could be made much clearer.

The fares are not predictable. I have lived in London for 18 years and I still regularly have to look them up, even when I know which modes I want to use and which zones I need to cross.

Therefore, the only way to benefit from the greater convenience of just tapping in and out is, at least for journeys one doesn't make regularly, to write a figurative blank cheque. If you have to look the fare up then you might as well have paid at that point, rather than travelling first and being charged later as happens with contactless PAYG.

Let's be real, most regular travellers such as commuters rely on capping. If you know you're going to hit the cap before you start travelling then you know what you're going to have to pay. I don't see why anyone would object, in that case, to buying a travelcard on their phone at the start of the capping period (be it a day, week or month) instead of having to mess about tapping in and out every time, even at ungated stations, as happens now. (I assume, of course, that the current penalty pricing of peak day travelcards would be reduced in line with the current PAYG daily caps and that travelcards would be available as e-tickets). For the umpteenth time, I am not talking about going back to paper tickets!

As for your blanket statement that tickets are more expensive than PAYG, you have hit on my other principal objection to PAYG. Thank you for raising it. People believe that PAYG is always cheaper, but it is not true. It's not universally true and it's not even a decent rule of thumb. It is rare for me to make a journey within the contactless PAYG area at the weekend where tickets aren't cheaper, mainly because Railcard discounts aren't given and every adult is eligible for a Network Railcard.

Most people find it more convenient to use contactless because (as you note) there is capping available and there’s no need to religiously check the price of every journey which costs only a few quid. People simply want to let the system work out the fare for them, but the option is (rightly) there to check if they wish to.

Feel free not to use contactless and buy tickets for each journey - you do you! But far more people choose to use contactless, so I’m not sure why you’d want to see that choice taken away from others.

TFL wants to have their cake and eat it with the lizzie, treating it like a tube line when it suits them, and not doing so when it doesn't.

I do agree with this generally, I’m just not sure it can fairly be applied to the Heathrow situation as within the zones the Lizzie is treated (and charged) like the tube. Heathrow attracts a premium but so does the Piccadilly as noted above.

 

[87electric]

Paying a premium for an airport service is common practice all over the world,

Indeed, the Edinburgh tram journey part from Ingliston to Airport is an eye watering price.

 

[Adam Williams]

It’s very obvious on the single fare finder as the relevant roundel is shown

A "very obvious" roundel is shown, which no screen reader will read out, because TfL haven't bothered to give it any descriptive text. Hope you're not visually impaired and trying to use the single fare finder, because screw you if so! It also fails to read out the station name properly because of how their autocomplete list works. These are basics which TfL can't even get right, and yet they're legally mandated to do as a public body.

Finally, there is nothing in the name of an Elizabeth line station to make it clear it is an Elizabeth line station, so if you can't see the icon you genuinely cannot tell what these autocomplete entries are. With the exception of some minor tab ordering issues, the fare finder on https://oysterfares.com/fare-finder/ does a stellar job at this, and it's built by a forum member.

Let's call a spade a spade, it's an awful tool with awful UX. TfL have come under fire before from the ICO for doing a poor job at providing pre-sales information to passengers (maximum journey times), so it doesn't surprise me at all.

To get correct results out of the single fares finder you have to know that TFL regard the rail and tube stations of the same name at heathrow as different stations. Otherwise you are very likely to incorrectly select the tube station and be shown the wrong fares.

Completely agree with this, it's not at all made clear how important it is to select the right one, and a much better implementation would've been to merge them all into consistent entries and then identify which mode the customer is planning on using once they've identified they want to go from "Heathrow Terminal 5".

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I think a "blank cheque" is inherent in any PAYG scheme and there are alternatives if you've no appetite for that. I'd rather there weren't differences by TOC - and airports seem to be a common money-spinner - but there are many far more complicated schemes around the world. Netherlands, Basque region, Lisbon... although in the last two cases although it takes a PhD to work it out it's so cheap that it hardly matters. Maybe the relatively high fares in London are the problem, or that most of those schemes are still working on pre-payment rather than contactless

 

[43066]

A "very obvious" roundel is shown, which no screen reader will read out, because TfL haven't bothered to give it any descriptive text. Hope you're not visually impaired and trying to use the single fare finder, because screw you if so! It also fails to read out the station name properly because of how their autocomplete list works. These are basics which TfL can't even get right, and yet they're legally mandated to do as a public body.

Finally, there is nothing in the name of an Elizabeth line station to make it clear it is an Elizabeth line station, so if you can't see the icon you genuinely cannot tell what these autocomplete entries are.

Let's call a spade a spade, it's an awful tool with awful UX.

Fair point re. the visually impaired - perhaps it could be improved from that point of view (has anyone complained/lobbied for that?). As I noted if you type “Heathrow” in you get the full list, which seems pretty clear for the average user.

There are many situations where you need to know precisely which stations you’re travelling between: a tube journey between Brixton and Victoria underground stations will be priced differently to one between the national rail stations of the same names, for example.

Maybe the relatively high fares in London are the problem, or that most of those schemes are still working on pre-payment rather than contactless

Contactless is more convenient but capping is a key part of that, of course.

 

[All Line Rover]

Told what? They can ask about journeys at TfL stations, but most people don’t need to do that because they are aware the internet exists, and it’s so glaringly obvious where to find the information.

Why is there this constant need amongst posters on here to look for conspiracies and suggest ulterior motives!?

Told that fares are published at https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder. I use TfL services regularly. I have never seen this mentioned.

If it is "glaringly obvious" to you, good for you. It wasn't so obvious to the OP. I expect that a lot of people will struggle to access the above web address when starting their journey at an underground station with no mobile signal.

There is no conspiracy or ulterior motive, which you are the first poster to suggest. But if passengers as a whole consistently pay more than they would expect, that is convenient for TfL and there will be no motivation for TfL to change their processes by making prices transparent at the point of sale.

Completely agree with this, it's not at all made clear how important it is to select the right one, and a much better implementation would've been to merge them all into consistent entries and then identify which mode the customer is planning on using once they've identified they want to go from "Heathrow Terminal 5".

Install a touch screen map in each ticket hall, where passengers can tap their origin and destination destination, tap any railcard discount, and be presented with the fare. Not something that will look out of place in 2025.

 

[43066]

There is no conspiracy or ulterior motive, which you are the first poster to suggest.

Someone referred to “pirate fares”. My experience of the TfL system is that it refunds incomplete journey max fare charges based purely on the honesty of passengers, which is not the behaviour of a system that’s looking to confuse people into paying more than they should - and indeed the OP was refunded in this case!

But if passengers as a whole consistently pay more than they would expect, that is convenient for TfL and there will be no motivation for TfL to change their processes by making prices transparent at the point of sale.

Is there evidence passengers as a whole pay more than they expect? The Elizabeth line is cheaper than the previous rail options which were HEX and Connect, so people may find it cheaper than anticipated.

I think you misunderstand how most people use the system. I don’t know the price of the zone 1 - 3 journey I made yesterday, but that isn’t because of any lack of transparency, it’s because I don’t care enough to check. If you asked people travelling to Heathrow via the Lizzy line 99 out of 100 wouldn’t know the exact price. Most won’t care, and would still use the Elizabeth line if the premium was three times as much because it’s much faster than the Pic, and cheaper (and often still faster!) than the alternatives.

Install a touch screen map in each ticket hall, where passengers can tap their origin and destination destination, tap any railcard discount, and be presented with the fare. Not something that will look out of place in 2025.

Which will have to be paid for and maintained, and will only present exactly the same information readily available to people on their smartphones, so surely better to invest in improving that interface. It would look old hat in 2024 let alone 2025.

 

[plugwash]

It’s very obvious on the single fare finders. If I type “Heathrow” into the destination search bar it populates a list of both Tube and NR stations,

However, if you just type "hea", then only the tube stations are shown.

I don't know how their autocomplete works, but it seems to have a strong preference for tube stations over rail stations.

 

[Paul Kelly]

no other suplerloops for over 20 mins to forced to use the 'Liz line

The 278 bus also runs over exactly the same route, with a few more stops, but is only a few minues slower.