Why isn't Victoria Line stock walk through ?

[387star]

Is there a reason Victoria line stock isn't walk through despite being relatively new ?

 

[MikeWh]

Had walkthrough been done when the new Vic trains were ordered? My guess is that they were the last orders before it became a thing.

 

[swt_passenger]

There was a quick discussion of this years ago, (although I haven’t searched for it) and from memory the ends of the carriages provide much of the structural strength for the overall tube shape. It was thought that you’d have to provide that strength by other means along the carriage, but you’d still have to leave room around the through gangway for the inner and outer part of the “bellows” connector, and too much headroom would be lost.

 

[philthetube]

Walk through certainly existed on full size stock prior to the vic stock, no idea about tube though.

 

[TRAX]

Walk through certainly existed on full size stock prior to the vic stock, no idea about tube though.

In tube trains per se no, but in metro stock worldwide yes, since the 1990s

 

[edwin_m]

A tube train, where there's barely enough headroom for some people to stand up straight, is a lot more challenging to design a walk-through arrangement than something of more typical Metro dimensions.

It may also be that when the Victoria Line fleet was specified nobody thought about including a walk-through feature, but once people saw the benefits on sub-surface and the Overground it became a must-have.

 

[Domh245]

It may also be that when the Victoria Line fleet was specified nobody thought about including a walk-through feature, but once people saw the benefits on sub-surface and the Overground it became a must-have.

Seeing as the S stock were being touted as walkthrough since 2003, I don't think the 378s were any sort of game changer!

Bombardier Wins Transportation Supply Contract Worth $7.9 Billion Cdn for the London Underground in U.K.

April 7, 2003--Bombardier Transportation (TSX:BBD.A) (TSX:BBD.B) has received contracts from Metronet for the supply of rolling stock, signalling, mai

www.businesswire.com

.

Bombardier's Supply Contracts with Metronet Rail BCV

Victoria Line: 47 new 8-car trains (376 cars).

Two pre-production trains will be constructed. The first train will commence its testing programme within three years and the first operational train will enter service in 2009. The rest of the new fleet will then be phased in over the next two years.

A completely new Signalling System and Control Centre for the Victoria Line will be installed by 2009 enabling full automatic control of the railway under a new "Distance To Go" signalling system.

Bombardier's Supply Contracts with Metronet Rail SSL

Progressive replacement of all signalling and 1,362 new vehicles over 12 years. Two pre-production trains will be constructed and supplied in 2008. All new trains on sub-surface lines will be of the same walk-through design, with only train length changing between the various lines. Signalling on the entire sub-surface system will be renewed by the end of 2014.

I think that there simply wasn't the readiness(or finance!) to deal with the engineering challenge of making walkthrough work at that size.

 

[rebmcr]

I think that there simply wasn't the readiness(or finance!) to deal with the engineering challenge of making walkthrough work at that size.

Nor, in hindsight, total SSL signalling renewal!

 

[birchesgreen]

I'm glad they arn't, i loathe walk-though trains.

 

[Mojo]

Also bear in mind that the only real ventilation in Tube train stocks comes from the drop down windows in the doors at the end of the cars. Yes I know that the 09 and other stocks has fans and or forced ventilation systems, but this is barely noticeable to make much of a difference.

 

[Camden]

Wonder if fire safety comes into it

 

[Ianno87]

Wonder if fire safety comes into it

Usually that's dealt with providing some normally-open fire doors part way along the train to seal the train in two parts if necessary.

 

[fgwrich]

I can only guess that, as the 2009 stock is in effect an updated 1992 stock, producing them with walkthrough type corridors would have required Bombardier to have supplied a completely new design from scratch - something which they were probably putting more effort (and probably more cost effective) into the larger and bigger S Stock contract.

 

[rebmcr]

I can only guess that, as the 2009 stock is in effect an updated 1992 stock, producing them with walkthrough type corridors would have required Bombardier to have supplied a completely new design from scratch - something which they were probably putting more effort (and probably more cost effective) into the larger and bigger S Stock contract.

S Stock barely differs from the rest of the Movia family.

'09 Tube Stock is also heavily based on the — *checks notes* — Movia family!

 

[Dstock7080]

As has been said, the main obstacles were coupling between cars, ventilation and then providing an adequate aperture of sufficient height to be able to be used by persons of average size.
Conventional doors with opening windows solved many problems.

 

[D365]

S Stock barely differs from the rest of the Movia family.

'09 Tube Stock is also heavily based on the — *checks notes* — Movia family!

A brand name can mean anything

 

[rebmcr]

A brand name can mean anything

Sure, but even before this thread I'd noted the (for example) matching internal pillar placement between overseas units, S, and '09TS.

 

[Domh245]

Sure, but even before this thread I'd noted the (for example) matching internal pillar placement between overseas units, S, and '09TS.

What do you mean by internal pillar placement matching?

 

[fgwrich]

What do you mean by internal pillar placement matching?

I'm just as confused, the '09 stock may be listed under the "Movia" family brand name, but they do in essence use an updated body of the 1992 stock (also by Derby). Everything else is of course new, modern traction package etc. A lot of the internal design is unsurprisingly similar.

 

[TRAX]

Movia isn't a family, it's a platform. It's just the brand name Bombardier gives to all its metro products. Two completely different metros can both be classified under the Movia brand - as is indeed the case. Compare the S Stock with Singapore's C951 (you won't find a lot of similarities between these two) or even Paris' MF 01 which is actually an Alstom/Bombardier product, meaning Alstom calls it Metropolis, and Bombardier calls it Movia.

Any metro from Bombardier, completely or not, is put under the Movia platform brand. But not all Movia metros are similar in design. Some, in fact most, differ heavily from each other.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Is there a reason Victoria line stock isn't walk through despite being relatively new ?

Is there a reason it needs to be walkthrough? The sub-surface needs to be walkthrough as not all coaches are platformed at all stations, on the Victoria line that is not the case.

 

[rebmcr]

Is there a reason it needs to be walkthrough? The sub-surface needs to be walkthrough as not all coaches are platformed at all stations, on the Victoria line that is not the case.

There are good reasons other than absolute 'need'.

 

[Mikey C]

The 2009 stock feel slightly like oddballs, in between the 95/96 stock and the next generation of NTfL, especially as they are fatter than the other tube trains, and hence won't fit on any other deep line! The extra headroom by the doors is much appreciated

 

[100andthirty]

I'm just as confused, the '09 stock may be listed under the "Movia" family brand name, but they do in essence use an updated body of the 1992 stock (also by Derby). Everything else is of course new, modern traction package etc. A lot of the internal design is unsurprisingly similar.

It is always best to ignore train manufacturers' platform names!

Apart from the basic layout which is much the same as all tube stock since 1938 tube stock, the 2009 tube stock has little or nothing in common with the 1992 tube stock. They were built in the same factory but that's about all. Whilst both types have aluminium carbodies, the method of construction is quite different and the 209 tube stock is much more robust.

2009 tube stock was the first train to be provided under the PPP. This specified outputs, and there was only a low level requirement for walk though trains, and for any of the reasons specified in this topic, gangways were not provided. at the time even LU engineers considered the walk though feature was hard to provide on tube stock, whereas they thought that it was a no-brainer for S stock. Metronet clearly agreed as the walk though gangway was in their bid in circa 2000.

A great deal of time and effort went into the design of the whole system to allow the walk though feature to be specified for NTfL

 

[transmanche]

In tube trains per se no, but in metro stock worldwide yes, since the 1990s

Earlier than that. The 1970s-designed Tyne and Wear Metro stock is walk-through.

 

[100andthirty]

To be fair, the Tyne and Wear stock is based on German high floor tram technology where gangways over the articulated joint were quite normal many years before the 1970s. The earliest examples were in the USA in the early 20th century. One of the first metro trains with gangways were for the Hong Kong Mass Transit system which opened in 1979,

 

[Mikey C]

To be fair, the Tyne and Wear stock is based on German high floor tram technology where gangways over the articulated joint were quite normal many years before the 1970s. The earliest examples were in the USA in the early 20th century. One of the first metro trains with gangways were for the Hong Kong Mass Transit system which opened in 1979,

The 1986 P86 trains on the DLR I assume also have a similar background

 

[Nym]

Also bear in mind that the only real ventilation in Tube train stocks comes from the drop down windows in the doors at the end of the cars. Yes I know that the 09 and other stocks has fans and or forced ventilation systems, but this is barely noticeable to make much of a difference.

All deep level trains currently in service have forced ventilation in compliance with the requirements of LUL Standard S1180 for a minimum amount of breathable air to be circulated per unit passenger, crush loaded, under all conditions with or without traction current, this is of course a higher number when the traction current is available, in order to provide a certain level of 'comfort'.
67, 72 and 73TS have roof mounted ventilation, as did C69, C77, D78 and C08 stocks and as does the S Stock platform. The smart idea at the beginning of non-LUL designed vehicles was to place these ventilators under the seats to create more space in the saloon, but at the sacrifice of air quality (in my opinion), particularly where some stocks, naming no names, have their air intakes directly above the brakes, or brake resistors. Each of these designs requires ducting to move the air higher in the carriage if built in Derby, or simply comes up under the windows if built at Washwood Heath, I'll let you assume which causes less issues.

I can only guess that, as the 2009 stock is in effect an updated 1992 stock, producing them with walkthrough type corridors would have required Bombardier to have supplied a completely new design from scratch - something which they were probably putting more effort (and probably more cost effective) into the larger and bigger S Stock contract.

It's nothing like 1992TS and actually shares more in common with an Electrostar.

The body ends are full of jumpers (which are a similar pocket design to 1992TS) drawbars, air lines and traction cables, there really isn't space for walk through, and for what would be very questionable benefit on any unit, let alone a very high frequency metro unit.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

The 1986 P86 trains on the DLR I assume also have a similar background

Yes, the P86 trains and the Tyne and Weir trains were both based on the Stadtbahnwagen B standard.

 

[matt_world2004]

Is there a reason it needs to be walkthrough? The sub-surface needs to be walkthrough as not all coaches are platformed at all stations, on the Victoria line that is not the case.

Walk through is higher capacity as the loads balance more evenly. And there is more floor space on the train