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Why so few Lincoln Central to Doncaster services?

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30907

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Yes, two of the four northbound were through from Cambridge.
Don't know if you could overtake them via the ECML/Peterborough!

From memory, you could (even pre HST) often do better via Peterborough, depending on connections.

I remember on an enquiry clerks' course around 1980 being set Hull at 0900 to somewhere beyond Ely. The expected answer was change at Donny onto the said 1029 DMU and again at Ely. Cleverclogs pointed out that you could stay on the Hull-London and change once at Peterborough for exactly the same arrival time (thus missing 3 hours on a Cravens...) - the course leader didn't seem pleased :(

The first northbound from Ely in those days connected off the Continental which was by then running via Nottingham - it went to Sheffield via Worksop.
 
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gordonthemoron

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there'd need to be a shuttle bus from any station at Doncaster Aiport as the railway line is too far away to walk, although it is closer than East Midlands Parkway and Liverpool South Parkway
 

Harpers Tate

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Except not all airport stations have been a resounding success - as East Midlands Parkway has amply demonstrated. Or Teeside Airport for that matter.

Doncaster / Robin Hood airport attracts 1m passengers a year - East Midlands attracts nearly 5m as does Liverpool airport.

Even if you managed to attract 10% of the airport's passengers to arrive by train that would mean an average of 300 people a day using the station - hardly a compelling figure. There's already an express bus from Doncaster station to the airport which must more than cover the demand.
East Midlands Parkway is not at East Midlands airport. I have little doubt that, were it actually at the airport (as Manchester is, for example) it might well attract a greater proportion of airport traffic. Because, as I'm sure you know, "we" generally consider buses (whether, expresses, feeders from distant train stations or elsewhere) to be transport of last resort; not something one can say for rail based transit.
 

eastwestdivide

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From memory, you could (even pre HST) often do better via Peterborough, depending on connections.
Digging out that 1978 timetable again, there was an
0910 Cambridge-Doncaster arriving 1218 (via March-Spalding-Lincoln)
for 3h08 direct

The alternative would be
0842 Cambridge-Ely 0903,
0908 Ely-Peterborough 0949 (the Harwich-Manchester train),
1007 Peterborough-Doncaster 1115 (a London-Leeds train).
for 2h32 with 2 changes

Or the next service:
1021 Cambridge-Peterborough 1123 (Ipswich-Peterboro train)),
1140 Peterborough-Doncaster 1246
for 2h25 with 1 change

I'm pretty sure both those ECML services would have been loco-hauled from the timing (1h06ish for non-stop Pbo-Don) - there was a different non-stop service timed at 58 mins, with a different catering symbol.
The cover of that timetable shows HST 254002 at York, in the year that they began to be phased in on the ECML, but in the timetable, only a few services had that odd catering symbol that was unique to HST services.
 

Lincoln

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The only thing that would justify increased services on the Lincoln-Doncaster line would be a station at Finningley to serve Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

Considering the airport was not factored into the decision to increase services in the next franchise; I am curious as to what you feel the justification must be then?
 

70014IronDuke

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Considering the airport was not factored into the decision to increase services in the next franchise; I am curious as to what you feel the justification must be then?

Is this upgrade to services - 1 TPH - definitely in the next franchise then? I must say, it's pretty revolutionary in the context of the current service.
Are these to be shuttle services to Lincoln, or through services to Peterboro, a mixure or ....? Do we know?

Is there any call for re-opening local stations on the route? From the map, Finningly village and Beckingham might be in with a shout. But a station for Finningly village would not be much use for the airport. Looks as if any station for flights would be put somewhere lke the Hurst Lane crossing, near the Hayfield school. Might pick up some local traffic from the estate around there too, I should think.
 

eastwestdivide

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Yes, and there was more than one in this 1978 timetable
This one was 0850 Ipswich, all stns to Cambridge 1018/1021, Ely 1038/39, March 1058/59, Whittlesea 1111, Peterboro 1123.

Ely to Bury St Edmunds direct was 4 trains a day, of which one was Manchester-Harwich.
In the reverse direction 5 trains, including the Harwich-Manchester and also the very odd 2300 Liverpool St...Ipswich (0101)-Bury (0135)-Ely-Peterborough 0310.
 

clagmonster

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Is this upgrade to services - 1 TPH - definitely in the next franchise then? I must say, it's pretty revolutionary in the context of the current service.
Are these to be shuttle services to Lincoln, or through services to Peterboro, a mixure or ....? Do we know?

Is there any call for re-opening local stations on the route? From the map, Finningly village and Beckingham might be in with a shout. But a station for Finningly village would not be much use for the airport. Looks as if any station for flights would be put somewhere lke the Hurst Lane crossing, near the Hayfield school. Might pick up some local traffic from the estate around there too, I should think.
The requirement for Doncaster - Lincoln is an hourly service, with the first train arriving Lincoln by 07:15 and the last arriving after 22:15. In the reverse direction, the first train must leave Lincoln by 06:00 and the last must leave no earlier than 21:00. The Summer Sunday requirement is for at 5 trans a day in each direction, with the first arrival at Lincoln by 11:15 and no earlier than 20:44. Southbound, the first must leave Lincoln by 09:30 and the last no earlier than 18:45.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...le/714307/attachment-a-tsr2-tables-sunday.pdf

There is no requirement to open new stations or extend the trains beyond Lincoln, but at the same time there is nothing to prevent bidders from doing so.
 

70014IronDuke

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The requirement for Doncaster - Lincoln is an hourly service, with the first train arriving Lincoln by 07:15 and the last arriving after 22:15. In the reverse direction, the first train must leave Lincoln by 06:00 and the last must leave no earlier than 21:00. The Summer Sunday requirement is for at 5 trans a day in each direction, with the first arrival at Lincoln by 11:15 and no earlier than 20:44. Southbound, the first must leave Lincoln by 09:30 and the last no earlier than 18:45.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...le/714307/attachment-a-tsr2-tables-sunday.pdf

Hmmm. So, all of a sudden, Lincoln-Doncaster - a forgotten route for most of 50 years at least (?) and which had no trains on a Sunday - gets almost as good a Sunday service as it has now on weekdays. Meanwhile it's weekday service is catapulted from scraggy and totally ineffective to a very decent hourly from first thing early morning to mid-late evening.
This is great for the line, but where is the reasoning behind this? I mean, why this sudden improvment, while, for example, the joint line south of Lincoln still has no Sunday service? Who decides these things?

There is no requirement to open new stations or extend the trains beyond Lincoln, but at the same time there is nothing to prevent bidders from doing so.

Thanks. I didn't think EMT or any other operator will be rushing to open stations - I just wondered if there was any local efforts.
 

greyman42

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I was in Lincoln yesterday and noticed that the A-Z printed departure notice did not even have Doncaster on it. Also, in the information office, there were no paper timetables for the Doncaster service but there were for other services.
 

route101

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Think ill be using the line nexT tuesday , will be interesting to see how many use it .
 

LowLevel

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As ChiefPlanner has mentioned the whole timetable in Lincolnshire is resource led. The services between Lincoln and Doncaster are only run in marginal time where the units are not utilised for anything else.

A case in point from examining the weekday timetable is there are 2x services within an hour during the evening - both originating from Sleaford. These particular services would otherwise go to Peterborough via Spalding in the daytime. But as that route (also set in aspic) doesn't serve passengers between Sleaford and Spalding after 16:30 the units can be used for Doncaster instead.

The other 3x services to Doncaster are running in gaps where the unit would otherwise be sat in a bay platform at Lincoln, as that unit is used for peak time strengthening in the morning and, again in principle by freeing up another unit in the area, the same again in the afternoon.

At present no service in Lincolnshire is specified by the government (or any previous ones!) to be 'customer' led. The timetable requirements are all about providing a 'reasonable' service across much of the day, delivered with the minimum amount of resources.

Of course TheBigD is correct in pointing out that in the next franchise, many of the routes radiating out of Lincoln will see vast improvements. But that will be expensive and will be subsidised accordingly. I would doubt that the increase in collected fares would go anywhere towards meeting it otherwise.

Something to note is if there genuinely was the potential passenger numbers to support such an uplift in services and costs, then the private sector would of delivered it years ago.

Not quite correct. As the new ITT states many of the Lincolnshire services are specified around taking school children into and out of Lincoln and Sleaford. Everything else is somewhat secondary.
 

clagmonster

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I forgot to mention the increased frequencies are required from December 2021.

The Sunday requirements are pretty much as per the current service on this line, at present there are five in each direction.
 

70014IronDuke

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I forgot to mention the increased frequencies are required from December 2021.

Sure. But it is still a totally revolutionary change in terms of service levels compared to ..... whenever. I'm pleased for the line, I just don't understand the reasoning - not, for example, when the Lincoln - Cleethorpes Sundays are so poor, with none in winter, and the Spalding-Peterboro is none all year round.

The Sunday requirements are pretty much as per the current service on this line, at present there are five in each direction.
Uh? There are currently no Sunday trains over the joint line, except the Sheffield - Lincolns on the Gainsborough - Lincoln section. None north of Gainsborough, none south of Lincoln. Unless I've gone mad.
 

Old Yard Dog

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I remember catching a loco-hauled train from Doncaster to Gainsborough Lea Road on 12/8/67 en route to a pre-season friendly at Gainsborough Trinity. It was presumably headed for somewhere in Norfolk. It was the first time I had bought split tickets despite being advised by the lady at Bradford Exchange that "You weren't supposed to have two day returns". The through fare was 31/- and I saved a bomb by rebooking at Doncaster. There were few long distance CDRs and no savers in those days. When we arrived at Lea Road, the doors were locked and we started to climb out of the window in desperation. An angry inspector eventually saw us, gave us a ticking off and then opened the door.

My next trip was a through journey from Doncaster to Cambridge in the 1970's for a job interview which traversed the Spalding - March line. It was operated by an old DMU which wobbled along at a goodly pace and made me feel distinctly travel sick. I arrived very pale faced and didn't get the job. I haven't done the line since due to inconvenient timings despite several visits to Gainsborough, Lincoln and Boston by other routes .
 

eastdyke

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..... also the very odd 2300 Liverpool St...Ipswich (0101)-Bury (0135)-Ely-Peterborough 0310.
Your 'very odd' service was the East Anglian TPO Down - Peterborough Section.
I have a list (source not noted) of the situation as it was in late 80's, early 90's which include:
EAST ANGLIAN TPO DOWN
Liverpool St 23.00 - Ipswich 00.40/01.50 - Norwich 02.49
EAST ANGLIAN TPO DOWN PETERBOROUGH SECTION
Ipswich 01.01 - Ely - Peterborough 03.09

The Peterborough section divided from the Norwich at Ipswich. :)
 

CaptainHaddock

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Considering the airport was not factored into the decision to increase services in the next franchise; I am curious as to what you feel the justification must be then?

Quite honestly, if it's nothing to do with the potential airport traffic, I don't know why Lincoln - Doncaster services should be increased. The only significant demand is on the Lincoln - Gainsborough section which only serves to duplicate the existing Northern services. Once past Gainsborough the line passes through sparse countryside and, like the OP, my experience of this section is that a barely half full 153 unit is typical of passenger numbers. Playing the devil's advocate, perhaps instead of increased frequency, the Lincoln - Doncaster service should be withdrawn and the spare 153s used to strengthen EMT's often overcrowded Newark - Lincoln - Grimsby service?

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/you-suffer-claustrophobia-522pm-lincoln-654892
 

eastdyke

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I was in Lincoln yesterday and noticed that the A-Z printed departure notice did not even have Doncaster on it. Also, in the information office, there were no paper timetables for the Doncaster service but there were for other services.
I was in Dogbox Central today and checked it out.
The A-Z is actually just 10 stations Hykeham - Sleaford (and 2 of those are the Newarks). So no Gainsborough either :(.
And 1 of the 153's was left next to the canopy on 3A idling for 30 minutes :frown:.
 

route101

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I was in Dogbox Central today and checked it out.
The A-Z is actually just 10 stations Hykeham - Sleaford (and 2 of those are the Newarks). So no Gainsborough either :(.
And 1 of the 153's was left next to the canopy on 3A idling for 30 minutes :frown:.

I was in Lincoln on Tuesday too . Arrived from Doncaster at 1116 on a dog box and departed one to Peterborough at 1330 which was busy . Guy next to me had a LNER advance via PBO to London .
 

Failed Unit

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I only use the line to travel beyond Doncaster. It is as others state rarely full

To be honest I prefer to change at Newark for a faster journey.

But a decent (10-15) minute connection is fine.

A lot of people just drive to Newark for both London and the North. We will see if the hourly service changes this in time.
 

David Burrows

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I was in Lincoln yesterday and noticed that the A-Z printed departure notice did not even have Doncaster on it. Also, in the information office, there were no paper timetables for the Doncaster service but there were for other services.
As a frequent user of Lincoln, it is unusual for the paper timetables for the Lincoln-Doncaster services (and others serving Lincoln) not to be readily available in the racks - leaflet 6, Peterborough-Lincoln-Doncaster.
 
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